tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4043273283783489008.post208485995754077475..comments2024-02-29T02:54:19.767-05:00Comments on Babbling Books: The Dispossessed by Ursula K. Le Guin : On Gender IssuesBrian Josephhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/15139559400312336791noreply@blogger.comBlogger35125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4043273283783489008.post-26326634212005836192015-12-18T22:48:41.680-05:002015-12-18T22:48:41.680-05:00Thanks Hila - I love your take on the difference b...Thanks Hila - I love your take on the difference between attraction and objectification.<br /><br /><br />I also agree there is an effort to control women by elements of society and it is related to attempts to police appearance. This comes in both directions. Women are criticized for looking too attractive and at other times for not trying to look attractive enough. I will have more to say about this in an upcoming post.Brian Josephhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15139559400312336791noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4043273283783489008.post-17480980218739042432015-12-18T15:28:23.765-05:002015-12-18T15:28:23.765-05:00"Where healthy sensuality ends and objectific..."Where healthy sensuality ends and objectification begins is a major source of the complexity."<br /><br />I think this is an important point, and I'm glad that you brought it up (and wrote this whole post). I think it largely comes down to whether you see the other person as fully human. If you respect someone and perceive their humanity and dignity, you can admire or be attracted to their body, their clothes, etc. without reducing them to those things. You can still see them as a whole person and not an object. It requires some profound changes in how we think about people who aren't like ourselves - and it isn't solved by just wearing less makeup (because even the comments some people make about how women shouldn't dress up nicely or wear makeup sound contemptuous of women - like being chided for being "air headed females" - it becomes yet another way to control women through the appearances).HKatzhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17653570160517335758noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4043273283783489008.post-86185075582188818212015-12-13T11:45:45.571-05:002015-12-13T11:45:45.571-05:00Thanks Naida.
I think a few, but a very few Femin...Thanks Naida.<br /><br />I think a few, but a very few Feminists are against beauty based gender roles. Most are really moderate folks who are interested in gender equality. I think that an important point that many feminists make is that folks stop ostracizing and/or criticizing women who choose not participate in society's beauty standards. I will be writing more about this in an upcoming post.Brian Josephhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15139559400312336791noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4043273283783489008.post-47223500767379200222015-12-13T11:21:24.520-05:002015-12-13T11:21:24.520-05:00Excellent commentary as always Brian. I think that...Excellent commentary as always Brian. I think that a society where people don't take care of their physical appearance would be undesirable as well. We are wired to respond to what we find pleasing to the eye. Our pupils dilate, we smile, pulse quickens... <br />"Where healthy sensuality ends and objectification begins is a major source of the complexity...." you hit the nail on the head there.<br /><br />I don't like labels, but I am a feminist and believe in equality for all. That being said, I enjoy getting dressed up and wearing high heels when I'm going out. I wear makeup everyday. I do that because I enjoy looking nice, plain and simple. <br />Happy weekend :)<br />The Bookwormhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10217390642323530030noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4043273283783489008.post-84764443922051842362015-12-10T21:15:25.537-05:002015-12-10T21:15:25.537-05:00Hi Maria - thanks for another great comment.
Th...Hi Maria - thanks for another great comment. <br /><br /><br />The one issue where I disagree with you on is men's reactions to dressing sensually and women's responsibility for that reaction. <br /><br />I can assure you based on experience, a person can be very attracted to a woman and not objectify her. I do not want to sound like a saint. But on this issue, I never objectify women, that includes what goes on inside my own mind. Many men nevertheless do this. That is their unfortunate choice and I do not blame women for this. Of course there can even be some discussion as to what we mean by "Objectify". That is also another discussion :)<br /><br />I also the same way about men cheating on spouses or other committed partners. I so not blame the way that women dress. Regardless of what society tells men, I think that is the man's responsibility only if he choices to be unfaithful. We have all kinds of temptations that could lead us to doing what is unethical and immoral. I think that men are one hundred percent responsible for their own choices here.<br /><br />With all that, women sometimes do use their sensuality in an attempt to manipulate others. Like men, sometimes women do bad things.<br /><br />Though it did help shape a lot of thinking for good human morals, based modern morality the morality of the Old Testament is abominable for various reasons. Much of it did indeed originate out of a complete male dominated society that had disdain for women. (That is, unless one subscribes to Harold Bloom's theory, which to me seems at least credible. He believes that the work is full of irony and is very sympathetic to the plight of women. In fact, he believes that it was originally written by a woman).<br /><br /><br /><br /><br /><br />Brian Josephhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15139559400312336791noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4043273283783489008.post-89745693174048817802015-12-10T20:49:13.034-05:002015-12-10T20:49:13.034-05:00Hi Sarah - I would love to know what you thought ...Hi Sarah - I would love to know what you thought if you read this book.Brian Josephhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15139559400312336791noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4043273283783489008.post-20675649973993831892015-12-10T15:04:07.884-05:002015-12-10T15:04:07.884-05:00That's it--I have GOT to make some time to rea...That's it--I have GOT to make some time to read Ursula Le Guin.Citizen Readerhttp://www.citizenreader.comnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4043273283783489008.post-36071694707336806412015-12-10T13:06:58.197-05:002015-12-10T13:06:58.197-05:00This post has certainly sparked a very interesting...This post has certainly sparked a very interesting discussion!<br /><br />I'd like to thank Sharon for her comments on my own first comment. I think, Sharon, that you and I can agree that, sadly, there are still women whose only goal in life is to find men to manipulate by using their bodies. Why this should still be so, in light of today's more progressive standards regarding gender equality, is beyond me. <br /><br />You make an excellent point when you say that a man can choose to ignore a woman who is flaunting her sexuality in order to seduce and/or have power over him. You have referenced the case of Joseph and Potiphar's wife. Unfortunately, I don't think many men would do what Joseph did, unless they were Christians, and even then, they might succumb to the temptation. Even Christian men are brought up with the idea that men are by nature sexual aggressors, and are "supposed" to dominate women, to be "the one in charge". Unfortunately, the Bible does reinforce this idea in many passages, with such concepts as a man being "the head of his wife". My take on this is that the Bible has cultural influences that reflect the times in which the various books were written. These influences do not necessarily apply to our own time. <br /><br />A case in point: adultery is frowned upon in the Bible, and, indeed, the Christian standard is that marriage is between one man and one woman. Yet, the Hebrew patriarchs all had more than one wife, and God never punishes them for this. What a contradiction, then, when an adulterous woman is brought before Jesus in the New Testament, by a group of citizens (presumably all men) who are more than ready to stone her! Why didn't anyone try to stone Abraham, Isaac, or Jacob? Why didn't anyone find Sarah's suggestion that Abraham father a son through her servant something that should be punished? So it's obvious that, in addition to containing moral truth, the Bible is also rife with concepts that are actually against that very truth. Why? Because they are influenced by the male chauvinistic standards of the society of the time.<br /><br />As to how free we really are, I sometimes wonder about that myself. Do we REALLY AND TRULY have free will? Or are we completely limited by the cultural milieu we were brought up in? But that's another topic...<br /> <br />Maria Beharhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13635809880830316283noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4043273283783489008.post-18367060469838365522015-12-10T12:45:59.020-05:002015-12-10T12:45:59.020-05:00Brian, I do agree that this is a controversial top...Brian, I do agree that this is a controversial topic among feminists. Women, like men, should indeed be free to dress as they choose. Everyone should be free to choose what they feel is right and proper for them. On the other hand, personal freedom should be tempered with the realization that one's actions might impact negatively on others. In the case of women dressing provocatively, first of all, I will never understand why a woman would voluntarily choose to dress this way, unless it were when she is alone with her husband. Otherwise, she will of course be objectified. Additionally, she will be causing men to have lustful thoughts toward her. Some of those men might very well be married, and so, such a woman would be infringing on the wife's right to have her husband's exclusive sexual attention. A married man could be sexually tempted in such a situation. Perhaps that sounds very old-fashioned, but I am, after all, a Christian feminist. I not only advocate for the rights of women, but I also adhere to Christian standards of what is right and wrong. <br /><br />We are all free to do whatever we want, but, are ALL actions morally correct? Of course, then we enter into a debate as to what constitutes morality. Conservatives and liberals differ markedly on what they consider to be right and wrong. As a moderate, I agree with some of the views of conservatives, as well as with some of those held by liberals. In this particular case, I consider it morally reprehensible for women to dress provocatively. This is a conservative viewpoint. I also consider such dressing to be detrimental to a feminist stance, as it obviously negates everything that feminism stands for. This is a liberal viewpoint.<br /><br />Having said all of the above, men should be held responsible for their actions, as well. When faced with a woman who is dressed provocatively, a man can certainly choose to ignore the obvious sexual provocation, and go the other way. But men are not brought up to do this. Society (which, after all, is still dominated by men) would consider such an act to be contrary to "what's natural" for a man. And it does appear that men are wired to react sexually when confronted by a provocatively-dressed woman. Still, it's been proven, throughout history, that giving free rein to one's instincts will frequently cause huge problems. <br /><br />In some Middle Eastern countries, men totally refuse to take responsibility for controlling their lust. Therefore, they force women to totally cover up their bodies when they go out in public. This is ridiculous in the extreme. But, in our Western societies, we go to to the other extreme. Just about anything goes nowadays, especially in the entertainment industry. <br /><br />At the risk of being considered judgmental, I have to say that I can't help but feel contempt for women who intentionally dress in a provocative manner. I know that, as a Christian, I should instead pity them, as well as pray for them. This is hard for me to do, though, because, in addition to causing potential havoc in marriages, these women are also infringing on the rights of all of us women to attain gender equality.<br /><br />OMG.....I have to get off my soapbox now. Lol But this such an INTERESTING topic, with many ramifications into related topics!Maria Beharhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13635809880830316283noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4043273283783489008.post-25787423245392748912015-12-07T20:27:58.156-05:002015-12-07T20:27:58.156-05:00Hi Lainy - Indeed I have been a big advocate for w...Hi Lainy - Indeed I have been a big advocate for women's rights as well as speaking out about violence aimed at women. <br /><br />Partially as a result of this gender issues in general have been a big interest of mine lately. I did not realize that this book delved so deeply into such issues before I read it.Brian Josephhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15139559400312336791noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4043273283783489008.post-55739896090269397212015-12-07T20:24:46.649-05:002015-12-07T20:24:46.649-05:00Thanks Caroline. This is a really compelling book ...Thanks Caroline. This is a really compelling book for a lot of reasons. I would love to know what you thought if you read it.Brian Josephhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15139559400312336791noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4043273283783489008.post-36232208956106082282015-12-07T11:21:52.893-05:002015-12-07T11:21:52.893-05:00Certainly not a book I have heard before Brian or ...Certainly not a book I have heard before Brian or been on my radar, I think I may have a wee nose out for it now though. Not surprised this one evoked a long and thoughtful post from you, I have seen a lot of your tweet and know how passionate you are about these issues.<br /><br />Lainy http://www.alwaysreading.netSo many books, so little timehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07564778178609301461noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4043273283783489008.post-8216862431687916962015-12-07T10:15:24.082-05:002015-12-07T10:15:24.082-05:00Really enjoyed reading this, Brian. Very interesti...Really enjoyed reading this, Brian. Very interesting and makes me want to go and grab a copy right away. I loved that first quote. Carolinehttp://beautyisasleepingcat.wordpress.comnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4043273283783489008.post-34637608708568471192015-12-06T17:06:14.625-05:002015-12-06T17:06:14.625-05:00Lots of interesting discussion and points!
Severa...Lots of interesting discussion and points!<br /><br />Several folks have commented on respect. In my opinion some respect does need to be earned. But there are other types of respect that should be extended to everyone. This includes acertain level of civility. It also includes allowing others to make their own choices as long as those choices do not harm others or are terribly self destructive.Brian Josephhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15139559400312336791noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4043273283783489008.post-82967700510581759082015-12-06T17:03:20.518-05:002015-12-06T17:03:20.518-05:00Hi Maria and Sharon - i want to mention that Le Gu...Hi Maria and Sharon - i want to mention that Le Guin does address the issue of women using sensuality to manipulate men. Some of the women of Anarres even call the women of Urras "Body Profiteers" in this regard. There is really a lot going on in this book.<br /><br />My opinion is that women, like men often use whatever advantage that they can to thrive and to survive. I attribute this to evolutionary biology. I think that as society improves, and I think that it is, in the long run improving, these harmful tendencies will express themselves less and less.Brian Josephhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15139559400312336791noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4043273283783489008.post-68574457953157484112015-12-06T15:55:26.057-05:002015-12-06T15:55:26.057-05:00Hi Sharon - Thanks for the insightful comment.
I ...Hi Sharon - Thanks for the insightful comment.<br /><br />I think that society does put way too much pressure on women to look a certain way and I think that it should not be.<br /><br />I think that we can criticize the pressure that society puts on women (or men for that matter) without going as far as identifying people as victims. I think critique of society is really important and has more often then not led to beneficial change. With that, I do agree that folks generally should take more responsibility for their actions. <br /><br />This book is really generating some great discussions!<br />Brian Josephhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15139559400312336791noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4043273283783489008.post-41699040791235811922015-12-06T15:47:39.909-05:002015-12-06T15:47:39.909-05:00Thanks for the super comment Maria.
This is cont...Thanks for the super comment Maria. <br /><br />This is controversial especially among feminists, but I do think that there is some evolutionary biology behind men's tendency to objectify women. With that I think that like many things that are driven by evolution, when we allow our better tendencies to win out, we do not act and think in ways that objectify and demean women. <br /><br />I am a bit of a progressive libertarian and I am not comfortable saying that women should not dress provocatively if they want to. With that, I believe as society continues to improve there will be a lot less pressure for women to do so and it will become less common.<br /><br />I must also mention that my favorite women popular singer is Patti Smith. I think that it is fair to say that she has never let herself be objectified.<br /><br />I cannot imagine what it feels like to be objectified as either an object of desire or scorn. It is a really awful thing that people do.Brian Josephhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15139559400312336791noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4043273283783489008.post-15760915314235867842015-12-06T14:45:41.664-05:002015-12-06T14:45:41.664-05:00First of all, Maria Behar gave a wonderful respons...First of all, Maria Behar gave a wonderful response and said a lot of what I was going to say.<br /><br />I would like<br /> to respond to Delia's comment that we should respect women's choices.<br />Respect is not given, it is earned. How any man or woman conducts him or herself (including how they dress) either commands respect or disrespect. Delia admits as much when she says she "rolls her eyes" at how some women dress. Rolling your eyes at someone isn't respectful. <br /> <br />I've been thinking about this subject about society and how much control it has over people's actions.<br /><br />What is "society"? Isn't it just me and you and every other human being? To say on the one hand "women have the right to choose but society punishes them", as Delia claims, but then say "society pressures women to certain types of behavior as Brian claims, are opposite assertions. Either a woman is free to choose or not.<br /><br />The only thing both those claims agree on is that women are victims.<br /><br />I believe neither, instead women may not be in control over what other people think of them but they can still own up to their own choices and stop blaming this invisible monster "society". That's authentic empowerment.<br /><br />Maria makes an acute point when she says that many women use their conduct and dress to have power over men.<br /><br />As a mother of a 20 year old son, I know that on more than one occasion he has felt sexually harassed by women who purposely dress provocatively in order to get his attention. Does that make him a victim?<br /><br />Of course not, he can man up and still be a gentleman. (He can also run the other way like Joseph from Potiphar's wife.)<br /><br />Thanks for getting me thinking about this subject Brian.Gently Madhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10450371589766691273noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4043273283783489008.post-84069651468848692272015-12-06T13:36:36.020-05:002015-12-06T13:36:36.020-05:00AWESOME post, Brian!!
As you have stated, this is...AWESOME post, Brian!!<br /><br />As you have stated, this is a theme in the novel that would need several posts to explore fully; yet, I think this one really gets to the gist of the matter. <br /><br />I do agree that men seem to have an innate tendency to objectify women. I wonder when this first started. It seems to go back very far in history. Why this should be so is a mystery to me, and, I would bet, to a lot of women, as well.<br /><br />Unfortunately, a lot of women throughout history have used this combination of objectification and oppression to their advantage. They have wielded power over men through their sexuality. I suppose they were forced to do this because of male dominance in most areas of life, but how sad to live this way....<br /><br />I think you're right in stating that total indifference to one's appearance runs counter to our biology. So does a complete lack of differentiation in clothing between men and women. Most people want to dress attractively for the opposite sex. Heck, if this weren't so, the human race would have become extinct eons ago! However, as in other areas in life, my own motto is: "Moderation is the key."<br /><br />There's nothing wrong with a woman wearing makeup, or jewelry, or nice clothes. (And I must admit that high heels, although they eventually wreak havoc on the whole body, do make women look more attractive.) However, dressing provocatively is another matter. For instance, I am appalled at the way women in the entertainment industry dress, especially at awards ceremonies. Their dresses show an incredible amount of bare skin, and sometimes are even transparent. What is the purpose of this? A woman can certainly look attractive to men without going to such an extreme! How can these highly talented women ever be seen as the great performers they are, if they dress like elegant 'ladies of the night'?!<br /><br />In the case of singers, I suppose such attire goes with the turf. If a singer dresses too conservatively, she will probably not make any sales, as flaunting her body is part of the whole package. Madonna, Lady Gaga, and Beyonce come to mind here. I find their attire and onstage dancing totally disgusting, but it's the reason they make sales. And lots of women, especially young girls, take them as role models! UGH. These three women are obviously intelligent. WHY do they choose to voluntarily objectify themselves? They're after the money, of course. Heck, NO amount of money would ever tempt me to publicly display my body the way they display theirs. Paradoxically, I do like their music. But I don't watch their videos. Go figure....<br /><br />You know, it truly baffles me that women whose views are progressive, who tout themselves as feminists, will still dress in this manner. They are completely contradicting themselves. They want to be taken seriously by men, yet, dress in such a manner that it becomes impossible for men to see them as anything but sex objects. The women I mentioned above certainly fit in this category. So do many others in the Hollywood industry. Incredibly, you even see such women in the corporate world!<br /><br />As a feminist, I think what has always bothered me the most is being seen EXCLUSIVELY as a female body by certain men. Even though I do not dress in a provocative manner, I have sometimes been objectified. And objectification inevitably leads to an attempt by men at sexual conquest. That is precisely what is so infuriating, and frightening, about it. Indeed, that's precisely what Shevek does when he becomes totally enchanted by Vea's sensuality.<br /><br />It would be so nice if there were a THIRD planet in Le Guin's story -- one that would have moderate views regarding gender equality. Biology shows us that it's really impossible to eradicate ALL differences between men and women. But at least ONE difference should definitely go, and that's the male tendency to see women MERELY in terms of their sexuality.<br /><br />Thanks for another great post!! : )<br /><br />Maria Beharhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13635809880830316283noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4043273283783489008.post-19776106431441058452015-12-06T11:40:12.196-05:002015-12-06T11:40:12.196-05:00Hi Harvee - Le Guin has written a lot of books. I ...Hi Harvee - Le Guin has written a lot of books. I really want to read more of them.Brian Josephhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15139559400312336791noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4043273283783489008.post-28233604029677648182015-12-06T11:39:29.488-05:002015-12-06T11:39:29.488-05:00Hi Vicki - I am curious to know what yourself and ...Hi Vicki - I am curious to know what yourself and others thing about this book.Brian Josephhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15139559400312336791noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4043273283783489008.post-44011316230439354832015-12-06T10:45:30.307-05:002015-12-06T10:45:30.307-05:00I read one of her books but since then have not re...I read one of her books but since then have not read her. What a prolific writer!Harveehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03490108303790217277noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4043273283783489008.post-51949248585347744192015-12-06T10:37:22.119-05:002015-12-06T10:37:22.119-05:00The more you share your thoughts on this book the ...The more you share your thoughts on this book the more interesting it sounds. I may have to get a copy for 2016.Vickihttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16974471357928655315noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4043273283783489008.post-64100515229286744922015-12-06T09:08:16.760-05:002015-12-06T09:08:16.760-05:00Hi Delia - Le Guin's science fiction really is...Hi Delia - Le Guin's science fiction really is unique and is in a class by itself.<br /><br />I agree with you, society puts enormous and unfair pressure on women to look a certain way.<br /><br />I also agree that there is a happy medium out there. I have continued my reading on this subject and will be posting additional entries in a few weeks.Brian Josephhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15139559400312336791noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4043273283783489008.post-10224863239296394322015-12-06T03:37:43.569-05:002015-12-06T03:37:43.569-05:00That looks like a fascinating book. I am intrigued...That looks like a fascinating book. I am intrigued, even more so since I have the book but always sort of pushed it aside because science fiction is not normally a genre I gravitate towards. I see now that I've been wrong and I hope this will be among the books I read next year.<br />It's an interesting subject; while I don't agree with the extremes presented as options here (I think a happy medium would be the best), gender issues have been subject for debate for ages. We still live in a society that seems to punish women for their choices. And yes, I may roll my eyes at what some of them are wearing but I respect that choice. So should everybody else.Delia (Postcards from Asia)http://wrongspelling.com/noreply@blogger.com