tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4043273283783489008.post4335132049987584136..comments2024-02-29T02:54:19.767-05:00Comments on Babbling Books: Tess of the D'Urbervilles by Thomas HardyBrian Josephhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/15139559400312336791noreply@blogger.comBlogger32125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4043273283783489008.post-86609798464911526482016-01-10T17:08:59.670-05:002016-01-10T17:08:59.670-05:00Hi Rachel -
This was my first read of it. I thin...Hi Rachel -<br /><br /><br />This was my first read of it. I think that I would have found it less affecting when younger. <br /><br />Your use of the word "beauty" is accurate and interesting. It is striking how such a dark work can also be beautiful.Brian Josephhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15139559400312336791noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4043273283783489008.post-8163930472206588212016-01-10T16:05:49.995-05:002016-01-10T16:05:49.995-05:00I read this book as a teenager and it hit home pow...I read this book as a teenager and it hit home powerfully. It is a book I should reread as an adult. Thanks for all the reminders by tweet and this post about the complexity, beauty, and tragedy of this book. Rachelhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14629744053780948715noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4043273283783489008.post-19611047607670769522016-01-06T16:41:50.547-05:002016-01-06T16:41:50.547-05:00Hi Sharon.
I love philosophical discussion in my ...Hi Sharon.<br /><br />I love philosophical discussion in my comments section. I think that it relates to literature in a of ways.<br /><br />I actually agree with a lot of what you wrote.<br /><br />I think that there is great wisdom in parts of the Bible, particularly the New Testament. The passage from Romans illustrates that.<br /><br />I also agree that the fact that there is morality built into our psyches is not an argument against the existence of God. If there is a God he clearly created a Universes where physical laws apply everywhere we look. thus it is only an argument that physical laws apply.<br /><br />As for morality and evolution: Cooperation and forming social groups such as families, communities, etc are instrumental in the survival of individuals. Morality is a key component in the establishment and maintenance of such social groups. A moral individual can be trusted by others and can establish social ties. <br /><br />Though these ideas are not new to mw I just completed Steven Pinker's The Blank Slate. In it he summarizes these concepts. I will be blogging about that book soon.<br /><br /><br /><br /> Brian Josephhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15139559400312336791noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4043273283783489008.post-46171458884927845862016-01-06T12:54:46.576-05:002016-01-06T12:54:46.576-05:00Hi Brian! I appreciate that you cared enough abou...Hi Brian! I appreciate that you cared enough about my response to post it anyway, especially since we don't agree on everything. <br /><br />I wasn't going to respond because this is a book review venue and not a forum for philosophical debate but I've been thinking about it all week and decided to say what's been on my mind.<br /><br />I appreciate your response. I know that many Christians don't act, well, Christian. It's important to know what the Bible actually says about our attitude towards others. It says judge not lest ye be judged and the amount of mercy you show others is the amount of mercy that will be shown you. (Matt 7:1-3). And Jesus himself when confronted with a woman who committed adultery told her accusers, "you without sin cast the first stone" he then told her he neither condemned her and to sin no more. (John 8:11)<br /><br />Sorry, not trying to preach and neither do I think people are converted by winning an argument with them but I felt the need to give a defense for what I believe is the truth.<br /><br />I want to leave you with one last thought: You say that morals are inherent in all people. The Bible also says the the truth is written on the hearts and minds of all men. (Romans 2:15)<br /><br />If there is a God and He is good and our creator, of course He would imbue all His people with a conscience. You can say evolution produced it, but I would like you to explain to me how that happened.<br /><br />Anyway, I hope you and your wife had a wonderful new year and I look forward to future reviews and exchanging of our ideas. Take care!Sharon Wilfonghttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17466621290140789056noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4043273283783489008.post-12327133816841667222016-01-05T12:21:14.547-05:002016-01-05T12:21:14.547-05:00Hi Susan - Indeed Hardy was very sympathetic to Te...Hi Susan - Indeed Hardy was very sympathetic to Tess and the role of women in this book. <br /><br />I have read both the Rainbow and Women in Love by Lawrence. He really created strong and complex characters who were women. I found the character of Ursula, to be extraordinary.<br /><br />Strangely Lawrence has been accused of misogyny based on other things that he wrote. That seems difficult to reconcile with the these two books. I have not read the works in question so it is hard to know for sure.<br /><br />Brian Josephhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15139559400312336791noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4043273283783489008.post-28256589032996760002016-01-04T19:53:24.437-05:002016-01-04T19:53:24.437-05:00Nice review Brian. Both Hardy and DH Lawrence see...Nice review Brian. Both Hardy and DH Lawrence seemed ahead of their times eh? Just to think of feminist issues and such. I would like to read them both again as I have forgotten much. Despite the darkness, Hardy seems to champion these doomed characters, right? thecuecardhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08870323589682197091noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4043273283783489008.post-53349577259414387242016-01-03T23:17:05.334-05:002016-01-03T23:17:05.334-05:00Hi Sharon – Thanks for making me think. But I do d...Hi Sharon – Thanks for making me think. But I do disagree with several of your points.<br /><br />I believe in a free society people are able to choose their own path, but within reason. I do believe that this is the case even if some folks think a particular lifestyle is not preferable or healthy. With that there are undesirable paths and thinking folks will understandably call that out. There are also paths that are so damaging to individuals, prostitution for example, that are best kept illegal. Common sense and moderation need top be part of our decision making process.<br /><br />There is an enormous line in being free to choose for yourself and forcing your will on others. Alec forces his will on others. <br /><br />With that, in my opinion Christian belief in sexuality is not the only healthy path one can take in life.<br /><br />One does not need to follow the Christian thought system to be moral. Alec is a rapist, and a controlling man. That is immoral. It seems evident that this basic morality is inherent in the minds of most humans. But that is a discussion for future posts :)<br /><br />I agree there are enormously beneficial things about the Christian belief system. It is indeed protective of people. On the other hand, some forms of it, particularly the form that Angel practices are, in my opinion, over -judgmental and damaging. Other parts say things about the role of women that are untenable and unfairly discriminatory. Many Christians reject this judgmentalism and discrimination but some others embrace it. It seems that is what Hardy was trying to illustrate here. In fact Angel’s father, who may be the only moral male character in the book, seems all about forgiveness as applied to Christianity. Though an atheist, maybe Forster was not against all Christian beliefs.<br /><br />I must mention that nothing in my posts identified or implied women are generally victims. The word victim is way too strong. One can critique society and say that it is being unfair to a particular group without going as far as calling folks victims. In my opinion this is how society improves. If we cannot critique society in this way, it seems pointless to talk about the world or try to make it better.<br />Brian Josephhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15139559400312336791noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4043273283783489008.post-24676527168609221802016-01-03T23:16:24.530-05:002016-01-03T23:16:24.530-05:00My Apologies to Sharon whose comment I inadvertent...My Apologies to Sharon whose comment I inadvertently deleted. Fortunately I as able to retrieve the text which I am posting here:<br /><br />"Hi Brian! <br /><br />I've read most of Hardy's works and this is a great one. It's interesting how our own personal beliefs can color how we see life. Tess was treated unfairly, however, Christian morals were put in place to protect women, not hurt them. If she had had a family who was there for her to protect her against her oppressor it wouldn't have happened. If Alec had practiced Christian morals he wouldn't have raped her. <br /><br />Because out side of Christian morals, what did he do that was wrong? Outside the Christian framework he was just exercising his own sexual freedom. I know you would disagree with that, but then you would be imposing your own values on poor Alec (sorry, I know that's tongue in cheek).<br /><br />And why did she return to him in the end? She murdered him. That is Hardy's expression of his personal beliefs in fate.<br /><br />I prefer Hemingway, Chekov, and F. Scott Fitzgerald because of their honesty. They say, yes, we're immoral but we're not going to pretend it's good or anything other than what it is and it's our choice, not fate.<br /><br />In my opinion Hardy is not honest. He was a great believer in fate. As you say, he wanted to show Christianity as a failed system and he wrote a work of fiction to support his point. That's very convenient. The people with Christian values naturally come off bad. (Interestingly they don't in Far From the Madding Crowd.)<br /><br />But what does Hardy offer people in return? Fatalism. Bad things happen because we are prone to bad things and we can't escape it. Tess ended up hanging for her crimes. In the end, I suppose Tess was empowered because she "executed" her rapist. Not so helpless after all, I guess. But then again, by Hardy's terms she couldn't help killing him or help being hanged herself. Take it a step further, I suppose Alec was "fated" to rape Tess while she slept. Her baby was fated to die etc..<br /><br />You believe we should all have the freedom to choose our sexual lifestyle. As St. Paul said, "All things are permissible but not all things are beneficial." <br /><br />I believe your own posts about the victimization of women, even in our "free" modern times supports that."Brian Josephhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15139559400312336791noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4043273283783489008.post-87709928103882942522016-01-03T06:31:43.120-05:002016-01-03T06:31:43.120-05:00Hi Violet - I have heard folks say that they had p...Hi Violet - I have heard folks say that they had problems with this novel because of what happens to Tess is so unfair and cruel. It was an ugly depiction, but his sympathies with always 100% with her.<br /><br /><br />Thanks for the recommendation. I will read Far from the Maddening Crowd soon.Brian Josephhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15139559400312336791noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4043273283783489008.post-70972995963812919092016-01-03T02:12:38.242-05:002016-01-03T02:12:38.242-05:00I have a difficult relationship with Hardy. He'...I have a difficult relationship with Hardy. He's so tough on his female characters, and I find 'Tess' to be relentlessly bleak and sad. It's a wonderful novel, though. You might like Far From the Madding Crowd. I think that's my favourite I've read so far. Violethttp://still-life-with-books.comnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4043273283783489008.post-20378940581004345352016-01-02T12:58:02.749-05:002016-01-02T12:58:02.749-05:00Happy New Year Naida.
One thing that made this b...Happy New Year Naida.<br /><br /><br />One thing that made this book so troubling is how difficult the life of the protagonist was. <br /><br />Brian Josephhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15139559400312336791noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4043273283783489008.post-62551611192472188892016-01-02T11:19:24.072-05:002016-01-02T11:19:24.072-05:00Hi Brian, I have yet to read Hardy but I do want t...Hi Brian, I have yet to read Hardy but I do want to try and read more classics this year so I'm adding this to my to read list. It goes without saying that Tess sounds like she led such a difficult life. This is definitely the type of book that would drain me.<br />Thanks for your thoughts on this one and happy new year!The Bookwormhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10217390642323530030noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4043273283783489008.post-26864352472921641772016-01-01T17:57:05.108-05:002016-01-01T17:57:05.108-05:00Happy New Year RT!
Glad to see that your blog is ...Happy New Year RT!<br /><br />Glad to see that your blog is still up.Brian Josephhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15139559400312336791noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4043273283783489008.post-80747119145095202772016-01-01T14:21:45.348-05:002016-01-01T14:21:45.348-05:00Happy New Year from R.T./Tim at the new and improv...Happy New Year from R.T./Tim at the new and improved http://beyondeastrodredux.blogspot.com/RTDhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17113953356514605424noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4043273283783489008.post-9926052312261807672016-01-01T14:08:43.853-05:002016-01-01T14:08:43.853-05:00Hi Maria - It is striking that this book was writt...Hi Maria - It is striking that this book was written by a man. Especially since the behavior of men in this book is so Universally bad. If this book had been written by a woman I think that it might have been labeled misandry.<br /><br />Hardy was amazingly sensitive about the plight of women. In this book this is illustrated over and over again.<br /><br />I do not agree that society should adapt celibacy before marriage as the preferred standard. I think it is a choice that most free people would not choose and I do not think that it would be a benefit for most. With that, I am a believer in freedom and I think that society needs to stop ostracizing people who choose celibacy before marriage. <br /><br />The double standard that you refer to still is evidence of a society that needs change. I do think we see the change happening but it is never fast enough.Brian Josephhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15139559400312336791noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4043273283783489008.post-28194358255002176932016-01-01T13:56:24.350-05:002016-01-01T13:56:24.350-05:00Thanks Diane. Have a Happy New Year!Thanks Diane. Have a Happy New Year!Brian Josephhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15139559400312336791noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4043273283783489008.post-61184584640117912692016-01-01T13:49:07.587-05:002016-01-01T13:49:07.587-05:00Brilliant commentary here, Brian! I greatly enjoye...Brilliant commentary here, Brian! I greatly enjoyed reading your insights!<br /><br />This is a very bleak novel, indeed. I read it years ago, and it left a lasting impression on me, although I don't remember all the details you mentioned -- specifically, all the pagan references. I really must read this book again in order to catch them. However, I hesitate to do so, because it's just such a depressing read....<br /><br />I remember feeling righteous indignation, too, when I first read this novel, because of the double standard. It's EXTREMELY unfair for women to be judged more harshly than men regarding sexual behavior. And, in spite of the feminist movement (of which there have been several waves), that old standard is not quite gone.... Yes, women do have more sexual freedom now, without much social censure, but still, men are still supposed to have more sexual experience before marriage than women do. And men are still judged lees harshly in cases of adultery.<br /><br />This novel is very fatalistic in tone. Tess was doomed from the start; there was really nothing she could have done to escape her horrible circumstances. And, most horrible and sad of all, she actually internalized society's view that she herself was responsible for being raped.... She felt shame for something that was not her fault. And later, when she meets Angel, she even tells him that she is not worthy to be his wife. How very sad....<br /><br />It was horrible that Tess was destroyed, but she had to be, in order for Hardy to make his point: the society of the time was horribly demeaning to women, and hypocritical in the extreme. <br /><br />What I find saddest of all is that such a novel had to be written. Had women's situation been much more favorable at the time, this book would have been totally unnecessary. I am happy, however, that this novel was written by a man. This indictment of the hypocritical Victorian society would not have had such a great impact had a woman written it. That's a very sad statement, but nevertheless, a true one. I wish Hardy were around today, because I would definitely write him a letter thanking him for writing this novel!<br /><br />Of course, as a Christian, I would much prefer it if men would adopt the former female standard of virginity before marriage, instead of women now adopting male sexual behavior. This might sound chimerical and even ridiculous, but it's the Christian ideal. Paradoxically, the Hebrew patriarchs had several wives, and God never lifted and eyebrow at this, to speak metaphorically....<br /><br />What I totally DETEST is society's holding men and women to different standards of sexual behavior, and refusing to acknowledge the hypocrisy of doing so. As the old saying goes, "it takes two to tango". One cannot be judged as guilty and totally disgraced, while the other is actually PRAISED for the very same behavior the former is condemned for. Either BOTH are engaging in shameful, immoral behavior, or neither one is. Having it both ways is just logically and morally unacceptable and repugnant.<br /><br />i think I need to steel myself and re-read this book!<br /><br />Thanks for your excellent analysis!! Happy New Year!! : ) Maria Beharhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13635809880830316283noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4043273283783489008.post-50113724666454758272016-01-01T13:48:43.108-05:002016-01-01T13:48:43.108-05:00Brian,I hope the New year is especially good to yo...Brian,I hope the New year is especially good to you and yours.(Diane) Bibliophile By the Seahttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10519875632878992728noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4043273283783489008.post-66559839367499807782016-01-01T10:02:36.026-05:002016-01-01T10:02:36.026-05:00Hi Tracy - I find that reading things when one is ...Hi Tracy - I find that reading things when one is older is a very different experience. <br /><br /><br />Happy New Years to you and your family!Brian Josephhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15139559400312336791noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4043273283783489008.post-47556017692132164062016-01-01T10:00:16.927-05:002016-01-01T10:00:16.927-05:00Hi Heidi - I am so happy to hear that you read Tro...Hi Heidi - I am so happy to hear that you read Trollope. He is such a different writer from Hardy.<br /><br />The thing with this book is that it is so dark that I think that any recommendation to read it needs to go with a little caution.<br /><br />Here's to a great reading year in 2016!Brian Josephhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15139559400312336791noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4043273283783489008.post-44407841067377100332016-01-01T09:58:53.361-05:002016-01-01T09:58:53.361-05:00Yeah! At last, a book we have in common. I read th...Yeah! At last, a book we have in common. I read this one many a year ago. Perhaps a book I should revisit as I'm sure I'd get more out of it now than I did.<br /><br />Wishing you and yours all the best in 2016 Brian.Felicity Grace Terryhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17852843882007267665noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4043273283783489008.post-46828558668464140552016-01-01T09:55:56.634-05:002016-01-01T09:55:56.634-05:00Hi James - Thanks for the great comments. I would ...Hi James - Thanks for the great comments. I would like to read more Hardy. His bleakness seems to be difficult and the brutal passage that you allude to may be a showstopper for me in regards to Jude the Obscure.<br /><br />Tess is really a brilliantly crafted character. Alec and Angel are truly great creations and their contrast highlights this. They seem top both represent the failure of manhood but in very different ways.<br /><br /><br />Brian Josephhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15139559400312336791noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4043273283783489008.post-89956981256059647212016-01-01T09:49:37.235-05:002016-01-01T09:49:37.235-05:00Thanks JoAnn - Perhaps "Love" is indeed ...Thanks JoAnn - Perhaps "Love" is indeed the wrong word for a book of this sort. Like a fair number of other classics this book is too dark and harrowing for such a description. <br /><br /><br />This was my first book by Hardy and I want to read more of his works.Brian Josephhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15139559400312336791noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4043273283783489008.post-49632159648090430062016-01-01T09:46:41.495-05:002016-01-01T09:46:41.495-05:00Hi Caroline - If you want to avoid bleak then I th...Hi Caroline - If you want to avoid bleak then I think it is best to avoid Hardy.<br /><br />No worries about the skimming. That is why I put up spoiler warnings.<br /><br />Happy New Year!Brian Josephhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15139559400312336791noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4043273283783489008.post-59309202793489191242016-01-01T09:43:37.586-05:002016-01-01T09:43:37.586-05:00Hi Bina - Thanks for stopping by,
The difficulty ...Hi Bina - Thanks for stopping by,<br /><br />The difficulty of this novel is novel is worth noting. In particular, I found Angel's actions to be the most unbearable and tough to read about.Brian Josephhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15139559400312336791noreply@blogger.com