tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4043273283783489008.post6002436956871666695..comments2024-02-29T02:54:19.767-05:00Comments on Babbling Books: The Gate to Women's Country by Sheri S. TepperBrian Josephhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/15139559400312336791noreply@blogger.comBlogger39125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4043273283783489008.post-83878330448334209232021-06-05T16:30:52.095-04:002021-06-05T16:30:52.095-04:00I agree with much of what you said. But you also s...I agree with much of what you said. But you also said "here are other groups that live outside the city walls that follow more egalitarian gender and traditional family roles" and I can't remember any groups for which that is true for:<br /><br />The "gypsy" camp is a man and the prostitutes he rules over<br />The Holylanders keep all women as slaves.<br /><br />What other groups were portrayed?Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4043273283783489008.post-42341723550958912472017-04-20T19:30:39.729-04:002017-04-20T19:30:39.729-04:00 Hi Maria – Thanks for such awesome and well thoug... Hi Maria – Thanks for such awesome and well thought out comments!<br /><br /><br />I am so sorry that you had to endure that from your ex – husband.<br /><br />I agree, that while verbal abuse, manipulation, and similar behavior is terrible, physical violence in all its forms is always worse. I believe it to be the worst things that humans do. As you point out, it encompasses a lot more then physical abuse. It includes war, genocide, torture and similar things. Billions of humans have died or suffered horribly because of it. <br /><br />As you point out, history, and it is the history of every culture, that men are a lot more violent then women. I point to writers like Richard Dawkins, Daniel Dennett and Stephen Pinker for biological evolutionary explanations for this. <br /><br />I think that there were always peaceful men. But I think that as society improves there are more of us and less violent ones. <br /><br /><br />Thanks for the link. That is so interesting. Though I think that there are a lot of reasons for war and violence, it is often tied up with the oppression of women. <br /><br />There are cases where women sexually assault men, but it is rare. Some of the MRAs say it is common which seems ludicrous. <br /><br /><br />The problem with a matriarchal society and violence, is that I do not think that a matriarchal society could exist with violent men around. Tepper solves that problem by kicking all the violent men out of the cities. <br />Brian Josephhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15139559400312336791noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4043273283783489008.post-55455796074384492392017-04-20T15:13:42.876-04:002017-04-20T15:13:42.876-04:00Sadly, one of the consequences of the increasing e...Sadly, one of the consequences of the increasing egalitarianism in our culture (I am specifically referring to the U.S.) is an increase in violent female crime. However, in comparing the genders, men are still ahead in the frequency of violent crimes.<br /><br />I would hope that, as time goes by, more and more men wi emulate the less violent behavior of women. <br /><br />I wonder whether having a matriarchal society would do anything to eliminate violence in the world. Probably not, at least, not at this point.....<br /><br />Of course I have more to say....lol. On my way to work now.<br />Maria Beharhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13635809880830316283noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4043273283783489008.post-26449519677248163992017-04-20T14:12:49.660-04:002017-04-20T14:12:49.660-04:00It's an indisputable historical fact that war ...It's an indisputable historical fact that war was originated by men. I would have to do more Googling to see if there have ever been any warlike societies dominated by women, but I doubt that there ever have been.<br /><br />War, violence, and aggression are all based on male domination of women. Men have historically competed to possess women, We see this even in the Old Testament. Supposedly even God Himself laid down rules for the treatment of women captured in war. They were essentially forced to marry their captors. Genocide is rampant in the Old Testament, and it's all perpetrated by men. The Old Testament patriarchs all had more than one wife, and God supposedly condoned this, as the text doesn't mention any divine prohibitions against polygamy.<br /><br />The New Testament is a marked contrast to the Old. Jesus even chastised one of His followers when He was apprehended on the eve of His crucifixion. The reason he did so was because that man had drawn a sword and cut off the ear of one of the servants of the temple. Jesus told this man that those who use a sword will perish by the sword. Jesus gave a perfect example of non-violence. Sadly, is later centuries, the Inquisition was perpetrated by His followers.<br /><br />Ghandi and Martin Luther King, Jr. were both shining examples of the advocacy of non-violence. Sadly, they were both victims of violence in the end. We need many more such men in this world!<br /><br />Here's another article on the subject of harems, and I quote: "The practice of taking a concubine goes back thousands of years to the civilizations of ancient Mesopotamia and Babylonia where the elite members of society took concubines, many of whom were slaves, however, the first wife always retained a place of primacy in the family. In some city-states, women served as priestesses and held a very high social rank. Generally, these women did not marry. In some Mesopotamian cultures, men would visit these women as prostitutes, which society not only condoned, but considered an honourable fulfilment of religious duty, regardless of the marital status of the man."<br /><br />Here's the link to this article.<br /><br />http://www.ancient-origins.net/human-origins-religions/secret-life-ancient-concubine-001301<br /><br />This state of affairs totally appalls us modern and post-modern folks! So it's very clear that, historically, violence has been tied to the domination of women by men. Even rape statistics prove this. Rape is a crime of power and control. And I have a case from my own personal experience, as well. A friend of mine once told me that she was nearly raped by a man she had just gone on a date with. After this man dropped her off at her apartment, at the end of the date, he suddenly returned. Having no reason for concern up to that point, she let him in, and he promptly proceeded to attempt to rape her. Well, I don't know how this woman got the courage to do what she did, but she remained calm, and told the guy that there was no need for him to be violent. She told him that she would willingly have sex with him, and asked him to give her a few minutes to get her clothes off. Well, guess what? The man just froze and stared at her in astonishment. Then he simply left her apartment! So this means that rapists actually get a kick out of seeing the woman struggle and resist. Yup. Power and control. Now, has any woman EVER done such a thing to a man? Oh, there might be one or two here and there. But I highly doubt it.<br /><br />(More to come....)<br />Maria Beharhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13635809880830316283noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4043273283783489008.post-5715484587732623462017-04-20T14:11:27.390-04:002017-04-20T14:11:27.390-04:00Okay, I'm back! Thanks for your patience, Bria...Okay, I'm back! Thanks for your patience, Brian. It is indeed true that we ALL get a bit too busy at times, lol. :)<br /><br />How interesting that Tepper's novel is similar to Sargent's. Of course, I want to read Sargent's book, as well. <br /><br />The topics of gender and the nature vs. nurture debate are ones that are very much on everyone's minds nowadays. As usual, SF writers are ahead of their time!<br /><br />From what you state in your commentary, it does seem that Tepper has included some stereotypes in her novel, which is unfortunate, as everything else you've mentioned points to this being a totally fascinating work. On the other hand, perhaps she was slyly trying to make the point that stereotypes are neither realistic nor commendable. Hmmmm....<br /><br />On the subject of violence as related to gender, I've been doing some Googling, as well as some personal reflection. From my own experience, I can say that violence of the physical type is much more frightening than violence manifested verbally and/or emitonally. My ex-husband was mostly emotionally and verbally abusive. However, on at least TWO occasions, he was almost physically violent toward me. On the first occasion, he drew his fist back to hit me, but then stopped. On the second occasion, he lifted a CHAIR up in the air, and made as if to THROW it at me. Both of these occasions scared me badly. Although his non-physical abuse affected me so deeply that I still carry the emotional scars, there's no doubt but that I could have been badly hurt if he had actually carried through with his physical aggression.<br /><br />I've been abused by women, as well, and it's been emotional and verbal abuse, too. I've also been manipulated and conspired against by women. Still, I have never feared physical violence from a woman. EVER.<br /><br />Because of their superior physical strength, men undoubtedly can easily intimidate a woman much more easily than a woman intimidate a man. And this is also the case with women intimidating other women. Thankfully, as societies have evolved and changed, there have been more and more men like you who are peace-loving and willing to extend respect to those who might be weaker physically, or at some other disadvantage, as compared to themselves. <br /><br />History bears out the fact that war was originated by men. Furthermore, warfare is based on competitiveness, as well as on male domination. Primitive societies were most likely organized around harems, according to a National Geographic article I've just read. If this is the case, then I'm reminded of horse societies. There's always a dominant stallion who zealously watches over and protects a group of mares. Inevitably, a rival stallion will often show up and challenge the one with the mares. It's frequently a fight to the death, although sometimes the resident stallion will simply surrender, and then leave. The new stallion will then take control of the mares. Well, if this was the case with primitive societies, then this would point to the origins of male violence in the struggle for power and control, not only in the society at large, but specifically toward women.<br /><br />Here's the link to that article.<br /><br />http://news.nationalgeographic.com/news/2007/11/071129-ancient-harem.html<br /><br />(More to come....)<br /><br />Maria Beharhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13635809880830316283noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4043273283783489008.post-66762153081769800582017-04-19T16:23:41.855-04:002017-04-19T16:23:41.855-04:00Thanks Stefanie. In retrospect "advocating&qu...Thanks Stefanie. In retrospect "advocating" may have been a strong words. I do get the sense that Tepper is playing with ideas here. With that she seems to be at least proposing matriarchy as a solution to violence. Brian Josephhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15139559400312336791noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4043273283783489008.post-37086403921140718052017-04-19T15:53:12.066-04:002017-04-19T15:53:12.066-04:00I read this a long time ago so the details are ske...I read this a long time ago so the details are sketchy but I do recall that I liked it very much. I have read other books by Tepper and while she is a strong feminist writer, I'm not sure she is advocating in this book for a matriarchal society. I suspect it is more of a study, a what if of sorts, a sussing out of assumptions and stereotypes and all that. Enjoyed your review!Stefaniehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14943596258182968212noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4043273283783489008.post-69969500462288654492017-04-18T21:55:35.069-04:002017-04-18T21:55:35.069-04:00Hi Kate - Pinker shows that as women become empowe...Hi Kate - Pinker shows that as women become empowered almost all forms of violence drops. As I recall he looks to the evidence first even if there is not a clear explanation. <br /><br />As for the rationale, it has been a while since I read the book. But I guess it would stand to reason that women, who are a lot less violent in almost every society on Earth, become more likely influencial, violence will drop. At best I am way oversimplifying. If I recall, Pinker spends a lot of pages on this issue. Brian Josephhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15139559400312336791noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4043273283783489008.post-10384577231217329802017-04-18T20:19:29.152-04:002017-04-18T20:19:29.152-04:00That is interesting. I would like to know the rati...That is interesting. I would like to know the rationale behind that conclusion. And is he talking about violence in general or just violence against women (which would definitely make sense)? I look forward to reading that book.Kate Scotthttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15878471739967889253noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4043273283783489008.post-90037110118963982682017-04-18T18:26:04.343-04:002017-04-18T18:26:04.343-04:00Hi Maria – There is never a rush to comment. Like ...Hi Maria – There is never a rush to comment. Like us all, I know that you get busy. Thanks for your kind words I your super comment. <br /><br />I fear that the MRAs would read this book and condemn it. I think that they would see it as advocating for female superiority. <br /><br /><br />As I found this book and its themes so interesting, I read affair number of comments on Goodreads, Amazon, etc. and blog posts on it. Though many consider a feminist novel, a fair number of Third Wave Feminists do not like Tepper’s ideas. Some folks objected to the fact that she saw some genetic difference between large groups of men and large groups of women. Particularly in the tendency to be violent. As I mentioned, I agree with Tepper on this. <br /><br />The thing about women being attracted to men that they should not be attracted to is interesting. I knew women who were attracted to that kind of man. But I also knew a few men who were attracted to harmful women too. Of course my own experience is in no way a scientific cross sample. <br /><br />I think that if you read this, you would really like it. <br /><br /><br />Have a great day!<br />Brian Josephhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15139559400312336791noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4043273283783489008.post-79232114688659712342017-04-18T14:01:54.494-04:002017-04-18T14:01:54.494-04:00Fascinating, outstanding commentary as usual, Bria...Fascinating, outstanding commentary as usual, Brian!!<br /><br />This is one of those SF books that I have long wanted to read.... I really should have done so by now, given that I'm a feminist. So I need to bump it up on ye olde TBR list!!<br /><br />It's so interesting that Tepper has reversed the roles of men and women in society; in this novel, it's men who are the second-class citizens. This novel should be read by every single MRA out there. Of course, they would absolutely refuse to do so. No surprise there, lol.<br /><br />I love that Tepper includes an egalitarian society in this novel, as well. And her characters are realistically flawed. However, it does bother me that Stavia, who is so very intelligent and resourceful, shows the sad tendency to choose a man who is not good for her. Tepper seems to be implying here that this is something we women just can't help doing. This is a rather disturbing observation she's making here, and I must confess to wondering whether it might be true.... <br /><br />I have MUCH more to say about this EXCELLENT post, but am a bit pressed for time right now, as I'm getting ready to go to work... I apologize for not commenting earlier, too. I've been a bit busy these past few days. <br /><br />I will return later!! Hope you're having a GREAT day!! <3 :)<br /><br />Maria Beharhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13635809880830316283noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4043273283783489008.post-8797340639416404902017-04-17T19:59:15.986-04:002017-04-17T19:59:15.986-04:00Hi Kate - One thing that I liked about Pinker'...Hi Kate - One thing that I liked about Pinker's The Better Angels of Our Nature is that he identifies, depending on how one counts them, about five factors in history that have driven down violence. <br /><br />Interestingly, the empowerment of women is one of those factors.Brian Josephhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15139559400312336791noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4043273283783489008.post-10633274103741996492017-04-17T18:19:17.722-04:002017-04-17T18:19:17.722-04:00I see your point. It is–without empirical study, w...I see your point. It is–without empirical study, which is unlikely to happen–an unknown. I guess my question (which will probably never be answered) is, how many more women would openly express rage in destructive manner if there were no cultural/physical barriers in place to stop them?<br /><br />I think the fact that more men are violent than women is why people say women are more moral than men, but that assumes that morality is more closely linked to physical violence than other things, such as emotional violence. Or that morality is linked to the severity of the outcome of an action rather than the motivation behind it. Those are all valid questions, but, as you said, comparing morality between genders is problematic. Drawing conclusions in favor of either gender doesn't really help anyone, especially when consensus cannot be had about the basics–such as the practical definition of morality.<br /><br />I'll definitely post reviews when I read Pinker's books. I'm waiting until I have room in the budget to buy a copy because I have a feeling I'll want to underline a lot. Kate Scotthttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15878471739967889253noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4043273283783489008.post-16463258984165523992017-04-17T09:27:23.047-04:002017-04-17T09:27:23.047-04:00Hi Susan - Though I think that unless it gets dera...Hi Susan - Though I think that unless it gets derailed by a global threat such as climate change, humanity is heading for a more egalitarian and more peaceful future. We have a long way to go however. <br /><br />With that, in my opinion, a Matriarchal society is far preferable to a Patriarchal one due to the issue of violence. <br /><br />I will be posting more these issues in the coming months. Brian Josephhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15139559400312336791noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4043273283783489008.post-2949192512748656022017-04-16T16:57:32.471-04:002017-04-16T16:57:32.471-04:00I think it is interesting to read these stories to...I think it is interesting to read these stories touting matriarchal societies, which I think would be more nurturing and less violent. Wouldn't it be a nice change for once? I've enjoyed your reviews and comparisons of both books on this ... the books are a fascinating way to see gender issues in a different light.thecuecardhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08870323589682197091noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4043273283783489008.post-31569073814915197632017-04-14T20:35:04.105-04:002017-04-14T20:35:04.105-04:00Thanks Hila.
Come to think of it, I think that re...Thanks Hila.<br /><br />Come to think of it, I think that relationship to parents is very predictive of such destructive attraction. Brian Josephhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15139559400312336791noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4043273283783489008.post-19931005571915086562017-04-14T18:01:59.680-04:002017-04-14T18:01:59.680-04:00I enjoy your analysis. That's an interesting q...I enjoy your analysis. That's an interesting question about the attraction to destructive people. From what I've noticed, one major factor is upbringing, with people more likely to enter into destructive relationships if they had dysfunctional/abusive relationships with their parents.HKatzhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17653570160517335758noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4043273283783489008.post-41664420018919547332017-04-14T13:21:37.412-04:002017-04-14T13:21:37.412-04:00Thanks Lainy - These are such interesting issues. ...Thanks Lainy - These are such interesting issues. They lend themselves to lots of discussion. <br /><br />Humans have a little long way to go when it comes to gender equality. The treatment of women in places Saudi Arabia is unjust and irrational beyond belief. Brian Josephhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15139559400312336791noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4043273283783489008.post-30774416437212137472017-04-14T09:38:34.773-04:002017-04-14T09:38:34.773-04:00Very thought provoking and you make some really gr...Very thought provoking and you make some really great points. I think considering how far we have came and yet still relatively stoneage in how some countries still treat woman as the lesser sex I think this would make for compelling reading. Certainly be great for a book group chat.<br /><br /><br />Lainy http://www.alwaysreading.netSo many books, so little timehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07564778178609301461noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4043273283783489008.post-30731979510038825782017-04-14T09:16:45.504-04:002017-04-14T09:16:45.504-04:00Thanks Evelina.
The book certainly tackles contr...Thanks Evelina. <br /><br />The book certainly tackles controversial subjects and Tepper is not afraid to take stands on these issues within the context of her story. <br /><br />The issue of the cities being overun by the garrisons is present throughout the book. Early in the narrative I felt that it was unrealistic that this did not happen. However, as the story progresses it is revealed that an elite group of servators have psychic and physical abilities as well as some special weapons that they can use to defend the cities. Still, occasionally there arises movements within the garrisons advocating for a takeover. When this happens the cities' leadership manipulates and/or goads internal and external conflict within and between garrisons aimed at breaking up these movements. In the end, I felt that Tepper built a realistic picture of how this all worked. Brian Josephhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15139559400312336791noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4043273283783489008.post-28103770453403398402017-04-14T07:46:25.364-04:002017-04-14T07:46:25.364-04:00Wow, that is such a problematic topic,and possibly...Wow, that is such a problematic topic,and possibly a problematic book. Good review.<br /><br />I just have one question. If at least a part of the men are warriors and physically very strong, how don't they invade the city? They probably could. How do they keep them out and from taking control?Evelina @ AvalinahsBookshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09564183695294142501noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4043273283783489008.post-5741816670831671482017-04-14T04:42:17.156-04:002017-04-14T04:42:17.156-04:00Hi Kate - There are such complicated issues that d...Hi Kate - There are such complicated issues that dig deeply into the issue of nature verse nurture. Your comment is making me think. I do believe that a role reversal in terms of power would lead to a less violent society because of evolutionary biological reasons. We cannot know just how big the difference is. Circumstances and environment would play a part. More women would undoubtedly be more violent. <br /><br />I have never thought of this in terms of morality. Generally, comparing morality between genders is problematic. With that, I think that in our modern society only a small percentage of men are violent (and a smaller percentage of women). Thus one might say that very slightly higher percentage of men are immoral as compared to women. I am oversimplifying and this topic. It lends itself to a lot more thought and exploration. <br /><br />I would love to know what you thought about Steven Pinker. The Better Angels of Our Nature is very bit it is one of the most informative books that I have ever read. It is interesting that one or six factors that he identifies as drives down violence historically is the empowerment of women. <br /><br />Brian Josephhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15139559400312336791noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4043273283783489008.post-1311894055249186032017-04-13T21:05:56.621-04:002017-04-13T21:05:56.621-04:00I find fictional explorations of gender fascinatin...I find fictional explorations of gender fascinating and it sounds like this one would be no exception. The way this book explores violence is interesting. I've always been repelled by the idea expressed far too often in popular culture that women are somehow inherently more moral than men. I don't think that's true and I actually think the concept is pretty dehumanizing–both to men and women. That said, I do think male violence, malice, etc. often results in more severe consequences than the female equivalent. In ancient times and more primitive cultures, this is primarily because men are physically stronger and can do more damage. In modern times, another factor may be that men have more political/military/economic power as well. If that power structure were turned on its head and women were the ones with that kind of power, I'm not really sure what the world would look like–if there would be any discernable difference in the level of violence and chaos in the world at all.<br /><br />You recommended another Steve Pinker book to me a few weeks ago, which is not on my Amazon to-buy list. <i>The Better Angels of Our Nature</i> is going on the list now, too.Kate Scotthttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15878471739967889253noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4043273283783489008.post-33963682097011657682017-04-13T05:32:43.950-04:002017-04-13T05:32:43.950-04:00Thanks Suko.
Ut is indeed a book filled with fasc...Thanks Suko.<br /><br />Ut is indeed a book filled with fascinating ideas. Brian Josephhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15139559400312336791noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4043273283783489008.post-8320309648244163232017-04-12T19:52:02.040-04:002017-04-12T19:52:02.040-04:00Brian Joseph,
This book does sound like a fascinat...Brian Joseph,<br />This book does sound like a fascinating book about ideas relating to gender and violence. Violence and war have devastating consequences for all. Excellent commentary! Sukohttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11893742747135555499noreply@blogger.com