tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4043273283783489008.post6352834136810265732..comments2024-02-29T02:54:19.767-05:00Comments on Babbling Books: Intercourse by Andrea DworkinBrian Josephhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/15139559400312336791noreply@blogger.comBlogger30125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4043273283783489008.post-25570232720093386232015-08-02T18:24:01.694-04:002015-08-02T18:24:01.694-04:00Hi Susan - I actually googled Dr. Ruth and Andrea ...Hi Susan - I actually googled Dr. Ruth and Andrea Dworkin. I cannot find any instances where the two commented upon one another. that is tool bad as it would have been interesting.<br /><br />In some of her musings I would say that Dworkin barely employs a stream of consciousness style, but just barely.Brian Josephhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15139559400312336791noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4043273283783489008.post-7416007354999507772015-08-02T15:14:02.496-04:002015-08-02T15:14:02.496-04:00Hi Brian,
I guess it's safe to say Dworkin wou...Hi Brian,<br />I guess it's safe to say Dworkin wouldn't have been a friend of Dr. Ruth's. LOL. I guess it appears Ms. Dworkin passed away in 2005 which I didn't realize. It's interesting that she was influenced by the Beats. Does that mean her writing style is sort of stream of consciousness? Cheers.<br />thecuecardhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08870323589682197091noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4043273283783489008.post-51011479186457720782015-07-28T17:31:24.247-04:002015-07-28T17:31:24.247-04:00Hi Caroline - I would say that if it sounds like y...Hi Caroline - I would say that if it sounds like you would not like this from my summery then you would not like this.Personally, though I vigorously disagree with her, I found this to be interesting at least.<br /><br />I looked up Alice Schwarzer. She does indeed seem to be advocate some controversial positions. <br /><br /><br />Though I agree that women do exploit sex, I also think that it is significant that men often do it involving violence, slavery, or slavery like conditions. Women rarely do that. Brian Josephhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15139559400312336791noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4043273283783489008.post-8040601133721433962015-07-28T07:53:24.054-04:002015-07-28T07:53:24.054-04:00I've never heard of this and have a feeling I ...I've never heard of this and have a feeling I would not like it. <br />I really wonder what happened to her. Does she ever write about herself and her own experience? <br />Alice Schwarzer - a famous German feminist - also had a tendency to be very controversial - similar themes. <br />I actually find the premise almost funny. Women can exploit intercourse just as much as men do. I'd even go as far as to say, they do it more. Carolinehttp://beautyisasleepingcat.wordpress.comnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4043273283783489008.post-32832748516414277012015-07-09T17:31:40.867-04:002015-07-09T17:31:40.867-04:00Thanks so much Hila.
Indeed there is a lot of pu...Thanks so much Hila. <br /><br />Indeed there is a lot of pushback going on. It is especially aimed at folks who talk about violence aimed at women on social media. Established writers are exposed to it. But also common individuals who have been talking about violence aimed at women are being subject to an intimidation campaign. Beyond that, there are many not actually harassing who are putting a lot of time and energy into arguing that folks should not talk about violence aimed at women. <br /><br />I wrote about it in a little more detail in my post on feminism and books that I linked to here:<br /><br />http://briansbabblingbooks.blogspot.com/2014/12/feminism-and-books.html<br /><br />Brian Josephhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15139559400312336791noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4043273283783489008.post-84063946187956737892015-07-09T17:24:31.195-04:002015-07-09T17:24:31.195-04:00Hi Lainy - Thanks for the good word.
Though her b...Hi Lainy - Thanks for the good word.<br /><br />Though her basic conclusions are very problematical, there are indeed important aspects relating to this subject.<br /><br />No need to apologize, life gets busy!Brian Josephhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15139559400312336791noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4043273283783489008.post-25792768773828656142015-07-09T14:29:00.694-04:002015-07-09T14:29:00.694-04:00I have tremendous respect for the way you thoughtf...I have tremendous respect for the way you thoughtfully review books that would make other people just rant. I've also seen false assertions about Dworkin circulate online (complete with fake quotes or quotes utterly removed from context). The sad thing is, even writers who are less extreme than Dworkin get tremendous pushback when writing about sexual exploitation (of women, men and children) - but like you, I'm confident that we can continue making progress.HKatzhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17653570160517335758noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4043273283783489008.post-11680818835226487432015-07-09T09:55:58.695-04:002015-07-09T09:55:58.695-04:00Definitely sounds like a thought provoking book an...Definitely sounds like a thought provoking book and you have done really well to break it down and examine strong aspects of it. I have never heard of it before, one of the many reasons I like coming by here. So many books I have never heard of but you always break it down practically and give honest views and insight into the (often tough) subjects discussed.<br /><br />Lainy http://www.alwaysreading.net<br /><br />P.s apologies I haven't been around much, my assignment has consumed so much of my time of late.So many books, so little timehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07564778178609301461noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4043273283783489008.post-43962287611499703782015-07-07T18:13:58.013-04:002015-07-07T18:13:58.013-04:00Hi Gary - Dworkin does indeed believe that women a...Hi Gary - Dworkin does indeed believe that women are almost Universally forced into a subservient role by society. She feels that intercourse is one of several drivers of this subservience. <br /><br />While I believe that we have a long way to go in order to reach equality, I would not go nearly as far as Dworkin. You raise a good point in that her arguments fly in the face of all the people in the world involved in healthy and loving heterosexual relationships.<br /><br />Many do feel that Dworkin has done more harm then good as her views are being used to undermine real efforts to achieve equality.Brian Josephhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15139559400312336791noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4043273283783489008.post-43893251422705495392015-07-07T09:53:32.078-04:002015-07-07T09:53:32.078-04:00Not sure I'm getting this, but it would appear...<br />Not sure I'm getting this, but it would appear that the author believes all women exist in a subservient role, whether this is during intercourse al in general. I can understand that can be the case, but can't expand that premise to the whole of womankind - I hope i'm getting this wrong because I believe that I have a healthy loving relationship & that my wife of long standing would agree with me. I can understand the merits of this debate, but I think sometimes those who shout with the loudest & most violent voices can do more harm than good, creating a situation where all debate gets tarred with the same brush.@parridhlanternhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12793548943992250238noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4043273283783489008.post-46603247907226903592015-07-07T08:41:58.827-04:002015-07-07T08:41:58.827-04:00Hi Maria - Thanks for your terrific comment.
I ac...Hi Maria - Thanks for your terrific comment.<br /><br />I actually found this book fairly interesting to read and the experience not unpleasant. As many of us seem to agree, Dworkin's views are often extreme and difficult to defend.They should be criticized. <br /><br />With that I generally do not find myself experiences a strong negative emotional reaction to extreme feminist ideas. The reason being is that, unlike extremists of almost every other ideology, even beneficial ideologies, extreme feminists almost never commit acts of violence. In addition what I consider bad feminist ideas generally do not work their way into society. I wish that were true of bad ideas from other ideologies.<br /><br />As we know the majority of Feminists are reasonable and moderate. As you point out anti feminists as well as the misogynist hate groups operating on social media, are constantly citing Dworkin's views. I agree, she is not helping the cause here (she has a lot of other books and writing that seems very popular so I am not yet ready to say that she has not contributed anything worthwhile).<br /><br /><br />I am usually not all that comfortable with extreme vulgarity myself, but I recognize that i can has some value for rhetorical reasons. On a side note, as I choose not to quote vulgarity, it was difficult to find quotes from this book to use.<br /><br />Indeed folks in healthy and happy relationships would by nature no agree with Dworkin, she basically viewed women with such opinions as having internalized their oppression. Brian Josephhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15139559400312336791noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4043273283783489008.post-4322989165479127002015-07-07T01:40:21.582-04:002015-07-07T01:40:21.582-04:00(I deleted the previous comment because of typos.....(I deleted the previous comment because of typos....)<br /><br />Thanks for your excellent and very honest commentary on what must have been a rather uncomfortable read for you, Brian. Had I read something similar written by a man (of course, from the misogynistic side of the fence), I don't think I could have been as calm and objective as you obviously were!<br /><br />As you know, I abhor all types of extremism, whether of the left or the right. Both are totally insane. And both lead to tyranny, suffering, and social injustice.<br /><br />I think Dworkin is not just an extremist, though. I think she needs to have her head examined. Lory has pointed out the obvious: if sex is as horrible for women as Dworkin claims it is, then what's the alternative for the human race? Because of course, "it takes two to tango".<br /><br />From what you describe about this book, the author reduces intercourse to ONE position -- with the woman on the bottom -- when in reality (ahem, ahem) healthy couples use more than just this one position. Besides, when love is involved in the sexual act, this position can be seen in another, very beautiful and positive way: the man is giving the very essence of himself to the woman, while the woman accepts his gift, embracing him lovingly throughout.<br /><br />In short, Dworkin has reduced intercourse to its lowest common denominator, and claims that ALL men secretly derive pleasure from having women 'beneath' them in order to dominate them completely! She has drastically and radically politicized sex. I'm sure most of us who are either married or in committed relationships would turn to her, scratch our heads, and say, in all confusion, "What the HECK are you talking about?" (I know some people would use 'the F bomb' here, but I refuse to do so.) And I'm here including both men and women.<br /><br />Another thing that guarantees I will NEVER pick up this book is the vulgar language you mention this author uses. As you know from visiting my blog, I totally DETEST such language.<br /><br />It's really too bad that misogynists latch on like leeches to books like these, so they can thereby 'prove' that ALL feminists are crazy man-hating you-know-whats. Of course, they conveniently fail to notice that some feminists (although, sadly, not a majority) are men themselves.<br /><br />In short, Dworkin is really doing every reasonable, moderate feminist a disservice. And she's absolutely NOT helping the cause. Not at all.<br /><br />Thanks again for the awesome commentary!! : ) Maria Beharhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13635809880830316283noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4043273283783489008.post-25379354807715550722015-07-06T17:51:38.375-04:002015-07-06T17:51:38.375-04:00Thanks Delia - Indeed Dworkin is very extreme. Nev...Thanks Delia - Indeed Dworkin is very extreme. Nevertheless men's domination of women through sex clearly does exist and is worthy of study. I think that most people would agree that it is not ubiquitous as the author believes that it is.Brian Josephhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15139559400312336791noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4043273283783489008.post-76688744985800107032015-07-06T09:16:08.309-04:002015-07-06T09:16:08.309-04:00That's a great review, Brian. It's good to...That's a great review, Brian. It's good to see that despite the negative attitude expressed by the author you were still able to take away something from this book. It does seem a little extreme to label intercourse as the root of all evil.Delia (Postcards from Asia)http://wrongspelling.com/noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4043273283783489008.post-36781378991037875232015-07-05T13:57:15.051-04:002015-07-05T13:57:15.051-04:00Thanks for the very thoughtful comment Lory.
Dwor...Thanks for the very thoughtful comment Lory.<br /><br />Dworkin does propose some alternatives but as I think that most folks agree, there is no need for them. Dworkin sees no value to heterosexual intercourse but that seems to discount the experiences of billions of people and likely to remain the opinion of a tiny minority.<br /><br />I am a strong believer in equality and an adamant supporter of mainstream feminist ideals. Despite what the fact that there is still oppression accompanied by horrendous violence I do think humanity is learning and improving in these areas. If one looks back 30 years, 50 years, 100 years it seems evident. So I say that everyone still needs to keep trying.Brian Josephhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15139559400312336791noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4043273283783489008.post-52661520164035415722015-07-05T13:12:18.456-04:002015-07-05T13:12:18.456-04:00Very interesting post. On the one hand, it's i...Very interesting post. On the one hand, it's important for us to wake up to the ways women continue to be oppressed even in societies that consider themselves enlightened (as with the Amsterdam red light district). Sex is unquestionably a major weapon in this oppression.<br /><br />On the other hand, I don't think our society can move forward unless women and men find a way to work productively together on all levels. Discounting male-female intercourse entirely is not only nonsense from a biological standpoint (what would be the alternative, in vitro fertilization for everyone?) but a denial of one of the major lessons we're supposed to learn by being human. Maybe we're not doing very well at that lesson so far, but I think it's still worth trying. Loryhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08519976394732029323noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4043273283783489008.post-91782527713568713182015-07-05T00:38:31.491-04:002015-07-05T00:38:31.491-04:00Hi Harvee - Indeed this work is great fodder for i...Hi Harvee - Indeed this work is great fodder for interesting discussion.Brian Josephhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15139559400312336791noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4043273283783489008.post-49942724015642363222015-07-05T00:37:41.517-04:002015-07-05T00:37:41.517-04:00Hi Emma - I so agree with your comments. All the t...Hi Emma - I so agree with your comments. All the things that you mentioned are indeed reasons that equality is not here yet and all are things that we need to oppose.<br /><br />I do think that oppression as it relates to sex is a worthy topic into itself, as it is common and also very complex.<br /><br />Dworkin's views on it are, as most seem to agree, extreme. <br /><br />Indeed, many folks, particularly on social media, are using Dworkin's views to discredit feminism on a broad basis. Brian Josephhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15139559400312336791noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4043273283783489008.post-22865369676044888792015-07-05T00:31:48.512-04:002015-07-05T00:31:48.512-04:00Hi Guy - It seems to be the near consensus that wh...Hi Guy - It seems to be the near consensus that while sex can be used to dominate, that Dworkin's views seem to be unreasonable. <br /><br />I have also never been to Amsterdam. The situation there sounds terrible. It seems that sadly, the lot of many women who are involved in the sex trade is one of oppression. Brian Josephhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15139559400312336791noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4043273283783489008.post-38731685383033308402015-07-04T15:36:27.320-04:002015-07-04T15:36:27.320-04:00This sounds like a very provocative book, starting...This sounds like a very provocative book, starting with the title. It seems to have provoked a lot of controversy, and would make for a good book discussion session! Harveehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03490108303790217277noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4043273283783489008.post-59596823439072384002015-07-04T15:18:03.645-04:002015-07-04T15:18:03.645-04:00Fascinating post about a book I'd never heard ...Fascinating post about a book I'd never heard of. <br /><br />I don't like extreme thinking, it tends to dogmatism and leads to preconceived ideas and judgments. And in the end, it tends to discard arguments that wouldn't go against their thesis. I'm not sure I'd want to read it. <br /><br />Instead of focusing on sexual intercourse, I'd say the whole body of women has always been subject to oppression.<br /> <br />Women's sexuality is a target during wars. It's kidnapping women for their bodies, it's raping women in the hope to humiliate the enemy, it's shaving the head of French women who have slept with German soldiers during WWII...<br /><br />It's also : imposing clothes that hide their sexuality, calling a woman with multiple partners a slut when a man is a Casanova, having the right to repudiate a wife, burning a woman with her husband when he's dead, etc.<br /><br />So sexual intercourse is part of a more global problem. <br /><br />I think that extreme feminism (like all extreme thinking) is always controversial, draws attention to it and discredits moderate thinkers because opponents to women's rights will always point out these extreme thinker to call all the feminists crazy.<br /><br />Emma Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4043273283783489008.post-55248365535442997852015-07-04T15:15:48.597-04:002015-07-04T15:15:48.597-04:00No doubt the author is correct about some of those...No doubt the author is correct about some of those controversial opinions--I'm thinking of unhappy marriages, arranged marriages, rape and also prostitution. A few months ago, I read a fiction book about sex trafficking and was shocked to discover that the Red Light district of Amsterdam is packed full of women who are basically sex slaves until they wear out. I've never been to Amsterdam BTW and was under the delusion that, since prostitution is legal there, that the women were there--not exactly of their own free will (who wants to be a prostitute) but there on their own volition--not that they are beaten, moved around, spied on, barely kept alive etc.<br /><br />Anyway I wouldn't have any patience with this author. To make such blanket statements about sex (your first quote) undermines the position of women who like sex and chose to engage in it of their own free will vs those who are exploited.Guy Savagehttp://www.swiftlytiltingplanet.wordpress.comnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4043273283783489008.post-78340757233686473652015-07-04T15:03:20.932-04:002015-07-04T15:03:20.932-04:00Thanks Suko.
Sometimes radical thinking is indee...Thanks Suko. <br /><br />Sometimes radical thinking is indeed fascinating.Brian Josephhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15139559400312336791noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4043273283783489008.post-86904094338687158362015-07-04T15:01:55.034-04:002015-07-04T15:01:55.034-04:00Hi Tracy - Indeed not only are Dworkin's views...Hi Tracy - Indeed not only are Dworkin's views often dismissed due to her radicalism but to some extent her views are being used to discredit a lot of more moderate feminist arguments. In my opinion this is not just grossly unfair, but it often is used by folks who seem to oppose equality in general.Brian Josephhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15139559400312336791noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4043273283783489008.post-90648906657856924652015-07-04T14:45:41.157-04:002015-07-04T14:45:41.157-04:00In some ways, this sounds fascinating, although it...In some ways, this sounds fascinating, although it's an extreme, radical way of looking at the subject. Excellent commentary today, Brian Joseph. Sukohttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11893742747135555499noreply@blogger.com