tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4043273283783489008.post718075134672561966..comments2024-02-29T02:54:19.767-05:00Comments on Babbling Books: Albert Camus’s The Plague and Charles DickensBrian Josephhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/15139559400312336791noreply@blogger.comBlogger34125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4043273283783489008.post-59074927874634226082020-10-01T09:06:34.880-04:002020-10-01T09:06:34.880-04:00Hi Brian, Not odd at all to compare these two grea...Hi Brian, Not odd at all to compare these two great writers and in my opinion that's the fun of literature seeing connections between classic authors. Agree, Dickens and Camus' novels are about injustice and unfairness but as you say Dickens took the more sentimental approach, Camus the more logical. And you pose a very interesting question. How would Dickens have written The Plague? And since I can't stop thinking about today's news how would Camus and Dickens urge us to respond to the times we are living in? Who had the better approach? Kathy's Cornerhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03967595794483824444noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4043273283783489008.post-21372851196286091922014-05-17T21:38:27.485-04:002014-05-17T21:38:27.485-04:00Good point about Nietxche! Well, what can you say...Good point about Nietxche! Well, what can you say about a philosopher who had such a huge influence on the Nazis....What a great guy.....ha.ha.ha.Maria Beharhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13635809880830316283noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4043273283783489008.post-90062283417557452722014-05-17T17:32:55.683-04:002014-05-17T17:32:55.683-04:00Hi Maria - Yourself as well as Himadri point out s...Hi Maria - Yourself as well as Himadri point out something that I think is important. Without emotion we would really have no reason to try to make the world better and alleviate suffering. I must add, ironically however, that a more rational a society is, the more value it seems to pale in empathy and compassion. It really is all about balance. <br /><br /><br />IOn the end both writers wanted to make the world better by alleviating suffering so in the end I cannot argue to vigorously against either. Compare them both to thinkers like Nietzsche and they both look very favorable.Brian Josephhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15139559400312336791noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4043273283783489008.post-69895865547402347202014-05-17T14:06:25.503-04:002014-05-17T14:06:25.503-04:00Hi, there!
Now this is certainly an innovative, i...Hi, there!<br /><br />Now this is certainly an innovative, interesting approach to two such diametrically opposed writers!<br /><br />Dickens happens to be one of my favorite writers. Yes, he can be overly sentimental, but there's an undercurrent of optimism in his work that I find helps me to counteract my basically pessimistic temperament.<br /><br />From the Camus quotes you've included in this post, I would have to conclude that Camus has a very clinical, totally cold approach, although I must concede that, in portraying human suffering, perhaps the maxim "less is more" can be seen to be true. Still, I find his description of the young boy's death to be too impersonal. On the other hand, perhaps his unsentimental approach renders this boy's death more of a universal symbol, instead of simply being this particular boy's death. However, I do find this approach to create a detachment between the author and this character that I totally dislike.<br /><br />Where Camus is clinically cold and rational, Dickens is warm and empathetic. Furthermore, with him, the alleviation of human suffering is an altruistic act stemming from compassion. With Camus, it's simply "the logical thing to do". ( Hmmmm....does this remind you of a certain Vulcan we both know and love? Lol.)<br /><br />To continue....compassion is an emotion. It does not come from cold, analytical logic. It comes from the heart, from "feeling with" a fellow human being. I totally dislike Camus's view, so again, I think I definitely need to avoid reading his works.<br /><br />I especially like what you say here:<br /><br />"Dickens’s approach seems much more practical. Hand in hand with this idea is the fact that strong positive emotions surrounding self-sacrifice make the pain of such sacrifice a bit less painful, thus alleviating suffering in and of itself.'<br /><br />Very well stated indeed! And I heartily concur! <br /><br />Another point: people who alleviate the suffering of their fellow humans DO need to be praised and seen as moral heroes, PRECISELY because of the prevalence of those who could care less, those who even take advantage of the suffering of others. These moral heroes need to be set up as examples to the rest of us, as well. People like Mother Teresa, for example, must be seen as exemplars of the type of behavior we should all emulate, in the measure of our capacity to do so. So, once again I find myself vehemently disagreeing with Mr. Camus.<br /><br />Conclusion: I'm definitely "Team Dickens", all the way!! Lol.<br /><br />Thanks for the great post!! : )Maria Beharhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13635809880830316283noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4043273283783489008.post-15661584568861753702014-04-17T05:59:17.608-04:002014-04-17T05:59:17.608-04:00Hi Himadri - I totally agree that sentiments and f...Hi Himadri - I totally agree that sentiments and feeling underly these things. If one were just logical then why bother to sacrifice for others?<br /><br />Brian Josephhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15139559400312336791noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4043273283783489008.post-42057720240227974392014-04-17T05:28:53.136-04:002014-04-17T05:28:53.136-04:00Thanks for that post, Brian. I must admit that I c...Thanks for that post, Brian. I must admit that I come to this as a fully paid-up Dickensian, and also as someone who did read Camus’ novels a great many years ago, and has but little remembrance of them.<br /><br />The quote you give from Camus is interesting:<br /><br />“The essential thing was to save the greatest possible number of persons from dying and being doomed to unending separation. And to do this there was only one resource: to fight the plague. There was nothing admirable about this attitude; it was merely logical.”<br /><br />Logic, of course, cannot work in a vacuum: it has to be based on axioms - principles we accept without argument because we see them as self-evident. And Camus states his axiom here: “The essential thing was to save the greatest possible number of persons from dying…” And since this is axiomatic, there can be no logical argument with anyone who refuses to accept this - no way of showing, using logical argument, that they are wrong. And it may be argued, depending on how we define “sentimentality”, that putting forward as axiomatic the principle that as many people as possible must be saved from dying is in itself “sentimental” - in the sense that it derives from our sentiments, not from our rational faculties. We cannot escape sentiment altogether, I think!<br />Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4043273283783489008.post-50794192735774431792014-04-09T17:57:58.746-04:002014-04-09T17:57:58.746-04:00Thanks Andrew.
Indeed this is an odd couple to c...Thanks Andrew.<br /><br /> Indeed this is an odd couple to compare but I tried to find a comparison that volumes were not already written about as there are between Camus and the Existentialists.Brian Josephhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15139559400312336791noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4043273283783489008.post-13305229935691186542014-04-09T15:05:20.933-04:002014-04-09T15:05:20.933-04:00Loved reading this, Brian. Those are two authors I...Loved reading this, Brian. Those are two authors I'd never expect to see in the same sentence, but you make a very convincing case. I haven't read The Plague by Camus, only The Outsider and The Rebel, but I can certainly see the points you're making. Compassion and sacrifice can be portrayed in many different ways. Interesting to see how two very different writers can be driven by some of the same concerns. Very thought-provoking post!Andrew Blackmanhttp://andrewblackman.netnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4043273283783489008.post-51060795403925658852014-04-06T13:48:07.384-04:002014-04-06T13:48:07.384-04:00Hi Seamus - You hit something on the head with Dic...Hi Seamus - You hit something on the head with Dickens, His work is so flawed it is a wonder that any level of Brilliance can transcend the flaws, yet in his case it does. <br /><br />In terms of the way that I view the nuts and bolts of the Universe I am much closer to Camus. Indeed I distrust acting on instinct and gut feeling. However, when it comes to worthwhile human accomplishments, sentiment and other emotions seem to often be the fuel for the engine.<br /><br /><br />I really must read Beckett.Brian Josephhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15139559400312336791noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4043273283783489008.post-60614516572998324412014-04-06T05:04:41.312-04:002014-04-06T05:04:41.312-04:00Interesting post. I'm probably on the side of ...Interesting post. I'm probably on the side of Camus as I instinctively distrust sentiment, although I do appreciate Dickens. I often find sentiment a cloak for inaction, and charity a way of supporting the status quo while ameliorating our guilt at the outcome of that status quo. Dickens loved getting people to cry at his readings and at times can seem incurably narcissistic. However the power of his characterisation and the tumbling fecundity of his imagination far outweigh his flaws. I must read him again, it's been decades since my teenage infatuation.<br />Camus always seems to me very close to Beckett - I can't go on, I must go on - and it is interesting to note that both put their lives on the line to work with the French Resistance during WW2. And logic can be as spurious as sentiment, especially if it leads to hopelessness. But despair is what Camus argued against..Séamus Dugganhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00574186409184247059noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4043273283783489008.post-22302198746423049542014-04-05T22:41:55.747-04:002014-04-05T22:41:55.747-04:00Hi Harvee - Without a doubt Dickens exudes compass...Hi Harvee - Without a doubt Dickens exudes compassion in most of his works. That is what made me think to compare the two since this book does also.Brian Josephhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15139559400312336791noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4043273283783489008.post-1840325183288218642014-04-05T17:18:37.008-04:002014-04-05T17:18:37.008-04:00Interesting comparisons! Haven't read the Plag...Interesting comparisons! Haven't read the Plague but agree Dickens shows how compassion could alleviate the misery of the nineteenth century in London and in Europe. One of my favorite of his books, The Tale of Two Cities. And Oliver Twist! Harveehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03490108303790217277noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4043273283783489008.post-5083124798379199982014-04-05T11:21:35.631-04:002014-04-05T11:21:35.631-04:00Thanks so much Lainy,Thanks so much Lainy,Brian Josephhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15139559400312336791noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4043273283783489008.post-79067345996498775242014-04-04T19:11:28.950-04:002014-04-04T19:11:28.950-04:00Agreed Brian and I think is anyone comes away from...Agreed Brian and I think is anyone comes away from your blog willing to try something purely on your thoughts/review/recommendation - it is a great thing.<br /><br />Lainy http://www.alwaysreading.netSo many books, so little timehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07564778178609301461noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4043273283783489008.post-12693384210057187672014-04-01T20:03:06.614-04:002014-04-01T20:03:06.614-04:00Hi Caroline - I think that though unsentimental, C...Hi Caroline - I think that though unsentimental, Camus was way to occupied with kindness between folks to support anything like that. <br /><br />Personally, even if it were not for moral questions, I think that such a plague or war would likely bring down civilization. Of course the bast way to control population is through reduced births. It has essentially happened in America, Europe and Asia already.Brian Josephhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15139559400312336791noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4043273283783489008.post-90906107355255646922014-04-01T09:56:11.905-04:002014-04-01T09:56:11.905-04:00That's avery original approach, Brian. I don&#...That's avery original approach, Brian. I don't think I've ever seen them compared but it's interesting and thought-provoking. I really enjoyed reading youtr thoughts. <br />I for one wonder what Camus would have thought about saving the greatest possible number of people seeing today's overpopulation. I know many who say that either a plague or a war a necessary. Not that I agree - I find both awful but we need to get the numbers iunder control.Carolinehttp://beautyisasleepingcat.wordpress.comnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4043273283783489008.post-19108659479002994792014-04-01T05:20:49.613-04:002014-04-01T05:20:49.613-04:00Hi Jane - Good point about Dickens's profit mo...Hi Jane - Good point about Dickens's profit motive. Oddly we usually think of works written in that way as being of lesser substance and not likely to stand the test of time. Somehow Dickens transcended that.Brian Josephhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15139559400312336791noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4043273283783489008.post-8272216087844688012014-03-31T21:24:14.840-04:002014-03-31T21:24:14.840-04:00I actually think comparing two very different writ...I actually think comparing two very different writers as you did is a fruitful way to analyze them. Compare and contrast has always been a favorite approach of mine, and I really enjoyed your flight of how Dickens might have dealt with Camus's premise.<br /><br />Btw, you can never forget that Dickens wrote to make money and I often think that his sentimentality has a touch of pandering to what he thinks (knows) will sell books. While he wrote with a social/reform agenda, he wrote to make money and found what the public liked. Not an "art for art's sake" kind of guy!JaneGShttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11094501834387622997noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4043273283783489008.post-9873053682549461132014-03-31T05:24:20.782-04:002014-03-31T05:24:20.782-04:00Hi Delia - Thanks.
I do agree that helping others...Hi Delia - Thanks.<br /><br />I do agree that helping others should be routine. However, I think that a little emotion and sentimentality helps to fuel the process.Brian Josephhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15139559400312336791noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4043273283783489008.post-53268380987261384992014-03-30T22:24:39.089-04:002014-03-30T22:24:39.089-04:00Very interesting comparison, Brian. I love Dickens...Very interesting comparison, Brian. I love Dickens' penchant for drama but I also have to agree with Camus, helping others should be the norm, not an exception.<br />Great article, and thought provoking.Delia (Postcards from Asia)http://wrongspelling.com/noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4043273283783489008.post-23373702690167708322014-03-30T14:18:26.032-04:002014-03-30T14:18:26.032-04:00Hi Naida - Indeed this is great fodder for great b...Hi Naida - Indeed this is great fodder for great book talk!Brian Josephhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15139559400312336791noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4043273283783489008.post-75439896211956749402014-03-30T14:17:54.007-04:002014-03-30T14:17:54.007-04:00Hi Lainy - Thanks! I think that reading and thinki...Hi Lainy - Thanks! I think that reading and thinking about stuff like this is all part of what makes reading so fun.Brian Josephhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15139559400312336791noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4043273283783489008.post-87000972086183518382014-03-30T09:54:45.239-04:002014-03-30T09:54:45.239-04:00Interesting post comparing similarities and differ...Interesting post comparing similarities and differences of Dickens and Camus. This can make for a great discussion over tea.<br />The Bookwormhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10217390642323530030noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4043273283783489008.post-44988772081488905572014-03-29T22:30:00.934-04:002014-03-29T22:30:00.934-04:00I often find after coming here thinking about eith...I often find after coming here thinking about either books or authors I would never have before or in this instance, a comparison I would never have made. Thought provoking indeed!<br /><br />Lainy http://www.alwaysreading.netSo many books, so little timehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07564778178609301461noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4043273283783489008.post-27360209606283553222014-03-29T21:10:00.170-04:002014-03-29T21:10:00.170-04:00Hi Miguel - So much has been written about Caumus&...Hi Miguel - So much has been written about Caumus's thought system that I figured on that I would do something different. Brian Josephhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15139559400312336791noreply@blogger.com