tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4043273283783489008.post1721191864488902202..comments2024-02-29T02:54:19.767-05:00Comments on Babbling Books: Religion and Its CriticsBrian Josephhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/15139559400312336791noreply@blogger.comBlogger44125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4043273283783489008.post-27552339984017993362016-04-02T20:59:15.913-04:002016-04-02T20:59:15.913-04:00Hi Naida - The nastiness on social media and elsew...Hi Naida - The nastiness on social media and elsewhere over this topic is out of control.<br /><br />I think traditions are great as well as the works that folks do in the name of religion are great and need to be acknowledged.<br /><br />In terms of religions competing with one another most of the Holy Books do this and tend to castigate or in cases like the Old Testament and the Koran, call for violence against other religions and non believers. Thus, there will inevitably be at least rhetorical conflict. <br /><br />Brian Josephhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15139559400312336791noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4043273283783489008.post-80094902516991750622016-04-02T20:30:16.930-04:002016-04-02T20:30:16.930-04:00Such a hot topic and one that can get really nasty...Such a hot topic and one that can get really nasty. Like you say, belief systems do need to be discussed and questioned and in order to really find the truth. I feel like at the end of the day, those who believe, no matter what religion they follow, are believing in some form of God. They just call Him by a different name. <br /><br />Now when people commit horrendous acts in the name of their religion, it is just sad and scary. Then it gives a bad name to the people who follow said religion but who are decent people and not violent. <br />All throughout history some of the most atrocious acts were committed in the name of religion. <br /><br />I also find that some people get really defensive and almost irrational on the topic of religion. <br />Other religions interest me as well. I have a few close friends who are Muslim and I see how they hold their beliefs close to their hearts and how their religious customs and celebrations bring their families together. I think that can be said for most religious customs and it's nice having those traditions. It should be about that not about whose religion is best and right.<br /><br />Great post as always!<br /><br /><br /> The Bookwormhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10217390642323530030noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4043273283783489008.post-32503462436985381852016-03-24T20:29:54.447-04:002016-03-24T20:29:54.447-04:00Thanks Lainy.
i am also very intrigued by the dif...Thanks Lainy.<br /><br />i am also very intrigued by the different belief systems. And also like you, horrified by the things some people do in their name. With the news from Belgium over the last few days, this seems especially relevant. Brian Josephhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15139559400312336791noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4043273283783489008.post-62801424561633015802016-03-24T20:25:22.389-04:002016-03-24T20:25:22.389-04:00Hi Priya - No rush at all in getting a comment up....Hi Priya - No rush at all in getting a comment up. <br /><br />That is a very interesting quote. I think that I would like that book. <br /><br /><br />Sometimes I am so torn over the New Atheists. I agree with so many of their points. There are also so many folks on t6he other side whose faith based rhetoric is just as, if not more scathing. In this world we also need strong secular voices. In the end however, I think that we would all do matter in their approach were more temperate.Brian Josephhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15139559400312336791noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4043273283783489008.post-78984281269876054722016-03-24T16:55:04.507-04:002016-03-24T16:55:04.507-04:00Really interesting post Brian, religion is always ...Really interesting post Brian, religion is always a hot topic and can often get nasty when trying to discuss it, even with level headed adults.<br /><br />I have read the God delusion, I remember very little of it but I find different religions fascinating and the horror people manage to achieve in the name of it is very scary!<br /><br />As always, very thought provoking post!<br /><br />Lainy http://www.alwaysreading.netSo many books, so little timehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07564778178609301461noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4043273283783489008.post-24771763470577078552016-03-24T15:38:36.733-04:002016-03-24T15:38:36.733-04:00I am sorry I saw this post as late as now. What an...I am sorry I saw this post as late as now. What an interesting discussion, I will come back to read the comments with greater attention later. I agree wholeheartedly with what you have said about Dawkins and the new atheists. Not many in my circles would be happy to find me criticizing their approach. While logical in what they promote, their tone is too militant and as you rightly said, unfairly scathing. I happen to be currently reading the excellent book called The Case For God by Karen Armstrong. It addresses the anthropological basis for religion and gives a new way of looking at atheism as a belief system as well. <br />If you haven't read it, in the very initial pages, she says:<br /><br />"It is a pity that Dawkins, Hitchens, and Harris express themselves so intemperately, because some of their criticisms are valid. Religious people have indeed committed atrocities and crimes, and the fundamentalist theology the new atheists attack is indeed "unskillful," as the Buddhists would say. But they refuse, on principle, to dialogue with theologians who are more representative of mainstream tradition. As a result, their analysis is disappointingly shallow, because it is based on such poor theology. In fact, the new atheists are not radical enough. Jewish, Christian, and Muslim theologians have insisted for centuries that God does not exist and that there is "nothing" out there; in making these assertions, their aim was not to deny the reality of God but to safeguard God's transcendence. In our talkative and highly opinionated society, however, we seem to have lost sight of this important tradition that could solve many of our current religious problems."<br /><br />Sorry for adding such a long quote, but I thought it might interest you. :)Priyahttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09671631876416310280noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4043273283783489008.post-76478018064599650032016-03-24T07:18:02.913-04:002016-03-24T07:18:02.913-04:00Hi Hila - It is complex indeed.
I agree with you...Hi Hila - It is complex indeed. <br /><br />I agree with you that the subject of translation is an important one and adds to the complexity. With that, some of the translated versions of Holy Books, such as the King James Bible, have become major drivers of religious thought even among people of faith themselves. <br /><br />The uncertainty thing is also big. I think it is also something non - believers struggle with.Brian Josephhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15139559400312336791noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4043273283783489008.post-14572538539429741382016-03-23T23:58:36.629-04:002016-03-23T23:58:36.629-04:00I enjoyed reading your post and agree that there n...I enjoyed reading your post and agree that there needs to be open discussion and criticisms of beliefs. One thing people are so bad at is making distinctions (both in terms of action and perception) between criticism and calls for violence or persecution.<br /><br />One of the things that bothers me most in discussions about religion is a kind of aggressive ignorance that insists on expertise where there isn't any. For example, with every holy book there's tons of surrounding commentary and additional laws and customs. Not to mention the complexity of the books themselves (hence multiple interpretations even of a single passage). What bothers me is when people - whether religious or not - skim through the Bible in English, for instance, and pick a passage here and there, decide that their literal reading in English is truth, and claim to Know Everything about the religion and how it's practiced. Even read as a literary work, the Bible is enormously complex and things get lost in translation. And again, there's the surrounding laws and customs built around holy books that may either mitigate or intensify any perceived "calls to violent action" within those books.<br /><br />People have enormous trouble with uncertainty. That's part of the problem. Uncertainty is terrifying. And that's understandable. But when the fear of uncertainty turns aggressive it can get frightening. I write this as someone who is religious but can't rest easy with any simple explanations. It's really possible to be religious and grapple with uncertainty and admit to that. Admit to not knowing. But it isn't easy. It's tempting to want definitive answers. <br />HKatzhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17653570160517335758noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4043273283783489008.post-28587916762268516732016-03-23T20:39:55.367-04:002016-03-23T20:39:55.367-04:00Hi Maria - Thanks for the good word.
Without a do...Hi Maria - Thanks for the good word.<br /><br />Without a doubt the Catholicism influenced me, but I think that what is often described as Secular Humanist thought was very strong too. With that, it gets complicated. My parents were what I would describe as blue collar liberal Catholics. I would clarify this to say this group were not nearly as liberal as some of today's progressives. That Catholic liberalism was itself influenced by certain secular ideas. These same secular ideas were themselves influenced by certain Christian beliefs. I think that may of our values are really a melting pot of ideas.<br /><br />In terms of Genes and morality, in The Better Angels of our nature, Pinker contends that as society improves, the positive tendencies in our genes, empathy, non violence, the belief in equality, etc. are expressing themselves more. Brian Josephhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15139559400312336791noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4043273283783489008.post-55037316457536225642016-03-23T14:58:47.331-04:002016-03-23T14:58:47.331-04:00I had forgotten this post. I went back and re-read...I had forgotten this post. I went back and re-read it. I noticed right away that, at your earliest formative period, you were surrounded by religious people; some were Catholic, others Protestants, and other Jews. At the the same time, you were exposed to those who "questioned the existence of God as well as of supernatural phenomena."<br /><br />So you were actually exposed to a mixed bag of beliefs. But surely your earliest notions of morality and ethics were shaped by religious values. I don't think you would be the person you are today without this exposure. <br /><br />In re-reading this post, it appeared to me that you were engaged in a process of selecting what you thought was valuable, and discarding what was not. I have been engaged in a similar process throughout my life, except that I tend to gravitate much more toward a spiritual world view. While I have attempted to reason my way through what I accept and do not accept, I must declare that my adherence to spiritual values is not always based on reason, but on feelings, on a sense of wonder about it all.<br /><br />I must do some reading on the origins of ethics and morality. I know I have a book somewhere -- alas, I think it's probably in storage -- that discusses the idea of "evil genes". And I have read something about the brains of psychopaths being differently-wired from the brains of regular people. I'll be sure to check out the books you've mentioned above, as well.<br /><br />BTW, I'd like to commend you on the balanced view you take on the evils perpetrated by various groups throughout history. Religious fanatics have indeed committed many atrocities, but so have non-religious groups, like those during the French Revolution and the Communists. I appreciate your pointing this out, as those from each side like to demonize the other while conveniently glossing over their own egregious faults. Jesus Himself said to those who were self-righteous that, instead of being hypocrites, they should take the plank out of their own eyes before presuming to take the straw out of their brothers' eye.<br /><br />Maria Beharhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13635809880830316283noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4043273283783489008.post-58863895297147119982016-03-22T21:35:38.420-04:002016-03-22T21:35:38.420-04:00Thanks for the great comment Maria. Also thank you...Thanks for the great comment Maria. Also thank you for the good word.<br /><br /><br />I like the idea of looking at these belief systems as both good and bad. <br /><br /><br />It seems clear from what everyone has written that the Old Testament is no guide to morality.<br /><br /><br />It also seems clear that based on evidence, much, but not all of our moral systems come to us in our genes. there are al of sources out there but I recommend Stephen Pinker's the Blank Slate for summary of what is very strong evidence. Richard Dawkins The Selfish Gene is also a great source. It was written before his current tendency to be abrasive. <br /><br />With that, much of our moral systems come from culture. A good chuck of my moral system was influenced by Catholic teachings. But early on, I was also exposed to liberal, secular ideas which also played a big part in my place of ethics. i was exposed to several people, including my much older sister, who fostered these ideas. <br /><br />I wrote about it here:<br /><br />http://briansbabblingbooks.blogspot.com/2015/01/life-universe-and-spirituality.html<br /><br /><br /><br />Brian Josephhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15139559400312336791noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4043273283783489008.post-65579103221720726942016-03-22T16:15:14.879-04:002016-03-22T16:15:14.879-04:00Two more point, Brian.
First, it strikes me as ve...Two more point, Brian.<br /><br />First, it strikes me as very odd that the Almighty God of the Universe would give such detailed instructions regarding what to do with the conquered Midianites. The Jews (meaning the Jewish warriors, of course) were to kill all the males AND children, as well as any women who were not virgins. However, they were to keep the virgins for themselves. I see the hand of MAN here. I see the cruel hand of the patriarchy here, selecting pure mates for their own convenience. And how, I wonder, were these warriors to separate the virgins from the non-virgins? Obviously, through the crudest and cruelest method available at the time....<br /><br />Second, Brian, I must point out that you didn't create your ethics and morals from an evolutionary background; you got them from the Catholic Church, into which you were born. That you later supplemented that with philosophical readings is obviously true, because you have stated as much in your posts. But your moral foundation was laid by the Catholic Church, as was mine. Maria Beharhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13635809880830316283noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4043273283783489008.post-47185114157227510982016-03-22T15:51:08.635-04:002016-03-22T15:51:08.635-04:00This is, I believe, your most fascinating, brillia...This is, I believe, your most fascinating, brilliant, and thought-provoking post to date, Brian!! And I say that because it deals with the basic issue of human existence: the meaning of life.<br /><br />Back in college, I was sort of an existentialist (I think everyone is, in college, lo).) This was despite the fact that I had only a cursory knowledge of this philosophical system at the time. However, I had begun to question the Catholicism I had been brought up with.<br /><br />Human nature being what it is, many people tend to criticize religions they were not brought up in. But there are those of us who do step back from our religious tradition in order to examine and even question it.<br /><br />I might have to return for more comments, so I'll get right to the point. I believe that every religious system has its good and bad points, except that it seems to me that the Eastern religions have more bad than good ones, and are egregiously false. <br /><br />When I was growing up, I was not taught to read the Bible. Most Catholics still aren't. The whole emphasis is on Church ritual and traditions. Since being exposed to Protestant ideas several years back, I have seen the glaring flaws in Catholic theology, although its moral system is indeed based on the Bible. <br /><br />As I became more familiar with the Bible, and began reading (although not in order) parts of the Old and New Testament, I became shocked at some of the things Jehovah did in the Old Testament. So I have to agree with you there, Brian. <br /><br />So the Midianites were evil. God supposedly gave them every chance to repent of their evil deeds. But did He, really? Did God send prophets to them, to let them know that He was the true God? Did He send an Isaiah, a Jeremiah, a Samuel, to them? There is no record of such actiosn in the Bible. There are plenty of Bible passages that recount the care and guidance God had for the Jewish people. But then, they were His chosen people. And the Bible was written from their point of view. <br /><br />The same thing applies in the case of the Egyptians. God sent plague after plague on them. Why didn't He send them prophets to speak of Him, to convince them that He is the only true God? And the Bible even says that God hardened Pharaoh's heart, so that Pharaoh became even MORE stubborn about letting the Jewish people go. <br /><br />All of the above hardly seems fair. And, even though Life is not fair, as we all know, surely God should be. He is, after all, the Arbiter of morality for those who believe in Him.<br /><br />Then there's that little passage (don't recall the verse) in which some poor Jew -- most likely a peasant, with no servants -- went out to gather branches on the Sabbath, so as to start a fire warm himself up on a cold day. No work was supposed to be done on the Sabbath. He was caught, and, when Moses consulted God, the Almighty told him that the poor man was to be stoned to death, for profaning the Sabbath. <br /><br />I believe in God. I believe in Jesus with all my heart, mind and soul. I believe He died for me, and for all humanity, and rose from the dead on the third day after His burial. <br /><br />But the things I have pointed out above deeply disturb me.<br /><br />There are parts of the Bible that are beautiful and comforting. Psalms 23 and 91 are cases in point. But there are other parts -- mostly in the Old Testament -- that make me shudder.<br /><br />Perhaps this just means that God is a mystery. Be that as it may, when reading such sections of the Bible, it's the Greek god Zeus who comes to mind, not Jehovah. Zeus, like all the other Greek gods, had all the vices and whims of human beings. Of course, because he came from the human imagination. To find the One True God sometimes acting in similar ways is, again, deeply disturbing.<br /><br />As I said, I might have to continue....<br /><br />Thanks for the AWESOME post, Brian!! :)Maria Beharhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13635809880830316283noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4043273283783489008.post-66677182474550651502016-03-21T11:57:49.206-04:002016-03-21T11:57:49.206-04:00Hi Tracy - As i mentioned in response to James, it...Hi Tracy - As i mentioned in response to James, it is so interesting how so many of us non - believers are interested in religious thought. Brian Josephhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15139559400312336791noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4043273283783489008.post-75355337816270516262016-03-21T10:42:40.815-04:002016-03-21T10:42:40.815-04:00As always a considered and balanced post. Despite ...As always a considered and balanced post. Despite being a non-believer I've always been fascinated by matters of faith and religion.Felicity Grace Terryhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17852843882007267665noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4043273283783489008.post-8809299293332633022016-03-20T20:14:35.262-04:002016-03-20T20:14:35.262-04:00Hi James - i agree, It is interesting how Non - B...Hi James - i agree, It is interesting how Non - Believers and skeptics can get so much from such spiritual writings. Brian Josephhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15139559400312336791noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4043273283783489008.post-35621652071744403652016-03-20T13:36:08.653-04:002016-03-20T13:36:08.653-04:00Thanks for your thoughtful commentary on these iss...Thanks for your thoughtful commentary on these issues. I generally share your approach to these issues and while I am not religious I have an interest in spiritual thought and writings. In that vein I have read the Koran, Confucius, Lao Tse, the Bhagavad Gita, and other similar works in addition to my lifelong readings in the Bible. Each of these is enlightening in its own way and your commentary highlights the importance of keeping an open mind.Jameshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00561320676355168336noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4043273283783489008.post-26807961106781114722016-03-19T14:38:49.710-04:002016-03-19T14:38:49.710-04:00Thanks Deepika. Thanks Deepika. Brian Josephhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15139559400312336791noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4043273283783489008.post-24383962537024165852016-03-19T06:59:40.382-04:002016-03-19T06:59:40.382-04:00This is an enlightening post. Thank you, Brian. This is an enlightening post. Thank you, Brian. Deepika Rameshhttp://worncorners.com/noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4043273283783489008.post-56137310415842722362016-03-18T06:59:40.199-04:002016-03-18T06:59:40.199-04:00Hi Sharon - I think that Judeo - Christian philoso...Hi Sharon - I think that Judeo - Christian philosophy has contributed to the positive aspects of our current moral systems. In fact, it has done so in some major ways. Hence my comment about the "good things" in the Holy Books.<br /><br />I think that our positive mores come from many sources including secular sources of thought.<br /><br />I also recognize that really bad things have come out of atheistic thinking. Your examples are good ones.I touched on this a little here:<br /><br />http://briansbabblingbooks.blogspot.com/2015/01/life-universe-and-spirituality.html<br /><br />In addition, there is a nasty pairing of atheism and misogyny that is occurring on social media right now.<br /><br />Obviously a lot of bad things come out of religion too. I try to see the big picture.<br /><br />As for being fearful of punishment in the afterlife, if there is God I have no reason to think that he is punishing people in an afterlife for skepticism. If he were, I might guess that he would be anger if I were to act like I believed in him, when I really did not, just to avoid punishment.Brian Josephhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15139559400312336791noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4043273283783489008.post-16682794864550894902016-03-18T00:01:07.240-04:002016-03-18T00:01:07.240-04:00Hi Brian, me once again. I see we have reached an...Hi Brian, me once again. I see we have reached an impasse. You have reasserted your beliefs and I can do little but to reassert mine.<br /><br />Therefore, I am going to add one thought and then bow out.<br /><br />The reasons you reject the Bible and consequently Christianity are the same reasons I reject atheism.<br /><br />You say your morals come from within you. I contend your morals come from having been raised in a country whose cultural mores originated in Judaeo-Christian values.<br /><br />When I look at countries whose belief systems are atheistic, I don't see people abiding by the same moral code: North Korea, the former Soviet Union, Cambodia's Pol Pot to name a few and I see unimaginable atrocities committed in those countries. Nietzsche endorsed this "might makes right" philosophy.<br /><br />I believe that God does exist and that He loves us but is also a just judge. There is an eternity waiting for all of us. The Bible says this eternity will either be in relationship with Him or in permanent isolation and darkness.<br /><br />And if I'm wrong?<br /><br />I have nothing to lose.<br /><br />But what if you're wrong?<br /><br />You have everything to lose.<br /><br />If I didn't care, I wouldn't be so dogged on this subject.<br /><br />Once again, take care!<br /><br />Sharon Wilfonghttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17466621290140789056noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4043273283783489008.post-59147806452001884052016-03-17T22:19:06.047-04:002016-03-17T22:19:06.047-04:00Hi Stefanie – thanks so much. i am optimistic and ...Hi Stefanie – thanks so much. i am optimistic and think that most people when they are reasoned with and calm, can be very open minded and fair.<br />Brian Josephhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15139559400312336791noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4043273283783489008.post-42605947502030217472016-03-17T22:18:36.809-04:002016-03-17T22:18:36.809-04:00Hi Harvee – Indeed most believers do not subscribe...Hi Harvee – Indeed most believers do not subscribe to the worst aspects of these books. <br /><br />With that, enough do to create misery for a lot of people in this world.<br />Brian Josephhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15139559400312336791noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4043273283783489008.post-32203376324691171512016-03-17T22:18:08.704-04:002016-03-17T22:18:08.704-04:00Hi Sharon –
I know that you are not just here to...Hi Sharon – <br /><br />I know that you are not just here to argue. This is actually great discussion.<br /><br />Of course I welcome you to continue to post your thoughts here and in the comments section of any of my posts. <br /><br />I think I detect three points that you are making that though related can stand on their own. <br /><br />It is true that if the Bible was the word of God, my objection to its moral structure would not disprove it. But I do not see a lot of reasons to believe that it is the word of God. <br /><br /><br />It is possible that there is a God but I do not see evidence that this is the case. Arguments based on philosophy such as something had to come before the Universe do not seem to ring very true for the reasons that I mention above.<br /><br /><br />Believing that the Bible is true goes beyond the contention that God exists. Many people believe in God but do not literally believe in the Bible. There are many alternate belief systems. <br /><br /><br />As for the morality, the worst parts as we have discussed above are simply abominable to me. I think that we humans should recoil at the things that I pointed out. If that is cruelty and barbarity is morality, then there is no point in having any morality . It would be more moral if one just ate, drank and was merry. <br /><br />If i thought that the Old Testament was true, I could give it lip service at best. I could never really accept the things that this book espouses. As for the New Testament, though I have areas where I disagree, and it is an incomplete set of morals, I could accept it if I thought that it was true. In fact, I find it to be inspirational and some of the philosophy contained in it has become part of my moral compass. Not because I believe that God insists that I accept it, but because I choose to accept it.<br /><br />Take care!<br />Brian Josephhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15139559400312336791noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4043273283783489008.post-56534951807666692112016-03-17T18:00:17.408-04:002016-03-17T18:00:17.408-04:00So much depends on how people interpret their reli...So much depends on how people interpret their religion. The Old Testament is more violent and extreme than the New, and many don't subscribe to those practices any more. Harveehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03490108303790217277noreply@blogger.com