tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4043273283783489008.post2742645679615824986..comments2024-02-29T02:54:19.767-05:00Comments on Babbling Books: Talking About Islam Brian Josephhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/15139559400312336791noreply@blogger.comBlogger30125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4043273283783489008.post-28053762643915609782017-09-24T11:38:57.797-04:002017-09-24T11:38:57.797-04:00Hi Hila - Indeed, the exchange of ideas, as wellma...Hi Hila - Indeed, the exchange of ideas, as wellmas the fight for human rights, works best when outright bigotry, as well as false accusations of bigotry, are kept out of the mix.Brian Josephhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15139559400312336791noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4043273283783489008.post-32970286029474849612017-09-24T11:22:39.710-04:002017-09-24T11:22:39.710-04:00I enjoyed reading your thoughtful post. It's i...I enjoyed reading your thoughtful post. It's important to be able to discuss these issues without the reflexive bigotry or the reflexive silencing of any critique or discussion that may be unfavorable. The foundational texts of a religion are just the beginning - there's the commentary that comes after, the way the religion is practiced in a culture (and what it has absorbed from the surrounding culture), and its changes over time. All of this needs to be better understood. HKatzhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17653570160517335758noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4043273283783489008.post-37176845610754381342017-01-19T19:35:17.816-05:002017-01-19T19:35:17.816-05:00Hi Caroline - Indeed, the extremists on both sides...Hi Caroline - Indeed, the extremists on both sides have a kind of symbiotic relationship. Rational and ethical folks need to hold to our principles in response.<br /><br />I think that cultural relativism might be OK when talking about theory and art. But as soon as one tries to apply it to actions, it is harmful and enables violent oppressive people. <br /><br />Brian Josephhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15139559400312336791noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4043273283783489008.post-84773473352735021342017-01-19T07:13:39.453-05:002017-01-19T07:13:39.453-05:00Very thoughtful and well-said.
As a cultural anthr...Very thoughtful and well-said.<br />As a cultural anthropologist I had to battle more than once when it came to cultural relativism. I think it's very dangerous but widely accepted by many cultural anthropologists. At the uni, I was the only one who dared criticise certainy things like female circumcision . . .<br />I'm afraid that those tow sides you describe are linked and as long as they co-exist, I see no real solution. <br />I think a lot of the change we need should come from inside, from the Muslims, not from us. And Westerners should try to stay rational. In an age of confusion that seems difficult. <br />Posts like yours are a valuable contribution. <br />Carolinehttp://beautyisasleepingcat.wordpress.comnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4043273283783489008.post-87828760704644516652017-01-15T18:13:41.410-05:002017-01-15T18:13:41.410-05:00Hi Susan - Some folks have tried to make it off li...Hi Susan - Some folks have tried to make it off limits. With that, there is a lot of discussion about it on social media, blogs, opinion pieces, etc. Sadly, many folks who have been critical of Islam have been murdered have had to go into hiding and/or had their lives disrupted in serious ways. Ayaan Hirsi Ali is a good example. I reference her in some of my supplemental material that I linked to above. <br /><br />Brian Josephhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15139559400312336791noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4043273283783489008.post-87454953943355864912017-01-15T18:04:15.458-05:002017-01-15T18:04:15.458-05:00Hi Kathy - Indeed, I find that the Koran is a lot ...Hi Kathy - Indeed, I find that the Koran is a lot like The Old Testament, as a roadmap to morality, it is a mixed bag at best, but by our standards it is more bad then good.<br /><br /> In recent years I have been trying to learn about Islam. I have tried to speak to Moslems both in real life and on social media. I have also done some reading.<br /><br />We often rightfully associate Political Islam with terrorism, But it is also leading to terrible violence and discrimination against women, gays, non - Muslims, some unpopular Muslim sects in nations like Saudi Arabia and Iran. Brian Josephhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15139559400312336791noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4043273283783489008.post-41976788193264356362017-01-15T17:46:55.404-05:002017-01-15T17:46:55.404-05:00The whole subject of The Koran seems to have becom...The whole subject of The Koran seems to have become so off-limits, which is unfortunate. It seems so loaded. The people who have been critical of it seem to have to go into hiding such as Ayaan Hirsi Ali. It's too bad I think she & others have made valid points about parts of what's in the Koran. But I have not read the book myself, and I don't really want to. But I look forward to your next post on it. thecuecardhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08870323589682197091noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4043273283783489008.post-14246663795366763392017-01-15T13:05:00.590-05:002017-01-15T13:05:00.590-05:00Hi Brian, I look forward to your commentary on the...Hi Brian, I look forward to your commentary on the Koran. Political Islam is much in the news but I know next to nothing about the islamic faith itself practiced by hundreds of millions who are just living their lives and want nothing to do with the militant groups. As forvthe Koran know Mohammed was the great prophet but after that I draw a blank. I imagine like the bible there are beautiful parts but other parts that are problenatic in the modern world and should not be taken literally. Kathy's Cornerhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03967595794483824444noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4043273283783489008.post-61439838913412706872017-01-15T11:28:56.297-05:002017-01-15T11:28:56.297-05:00Thanks A Reader's Tales.
I just cannot stay a...Thanks A Reader's Tales.<br /><br />I just cannot stay away from controversial subjects. Brian Josephhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15139559400312336791noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4043273283783489008.post-63810767747990387732017-01-15T04:53:59.697-05:002017-01-15T04:53:59.697-05:00Excellent article, Brian. I really enjoyed reading...Excellent article, Brian. I really enjoyed reading your post. But I do not comment on that. This comes from my education. My parents told me two things: never talk about politics or religion. I have kept this golden rule.<br />Have a great week ahead :)<br />The Reader's Taleshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12701126931175725145noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4043273283783489008.post-90454834179939827772017-01-14T21:45:30.281-05:002017-01-14T21:45:30.281-05:00Thanks so much Maria.
I second your call for mode...Thanks so much Maria.<br /><br />I second your call for moderation. It really is the path to a better world. I am one hundred percent tolerant of Religion, until religious believes call for the oppression of others, then I am intolerant of them. <br /><br />I think at this moment of time, there is more oppression of women and other groups in countries that are non white majorities. Throughout Africa and the Islamic world, the oppression and violence of tens of millions of women and minority groups is incomparable to anything going on in The West. With that, there is plenty of oppression to go around and White men are responsible for plenty of it. I have found that the Right uses the oppression by non - Whites as a way to minimize oppression by Whites. The Left uses oppression by Whites to minimize oppression by non -Whites. <br /><br />I will be posting my thoughts on the Koran itself in a couple of days. In my opinion, like The Old Testament, the Koran very misogynistic. I think that the heart of the Issue is governments and militant organizations all over the world that are dominated by Islam. That is, the problem is Political Islam. It is one of the great evils in the world. With that, hundreds of millions of Muslims all over the world do not subscribe to Political Islam. <br /><br />As you know, in my opinion you should reject any admonitions to accept things or do things because you are a woman. I tend to be a bit libertarian when it comes to dress and art (within limitations. I think you know I object to things that are harmful or extremely vulgar or that defy common sense). Within limits, I think that it is OK that different kinds of people will just express themselves in different ways. In the end, I blame the men who objectify women. <br /><br />That translator’s note sounds inappropriate and ridiculous. I read the Stephen Mitchell translation of the Bhagavad Gita and I thought that it was excellent. <br /><br /><br />Thanks for the great comment!<br /><br />Have a great Weekend!<br /><br />Brian Josephhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15139559400312336791noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4043273283783489008.post-11736136894250617522017-01-14T16:13:24.647-05:002017-01-14T16:13:24.647-05:00P.S. Just checked out the Gita on Amazon. There...P.S. Just checked out the Gita on Amazon. There's a translation by Eknath Easwaran. In the interests of fairness, I might pick up this one as well as the one by Mitchell. :)Maria Beharhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13635809880830316283noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4043273283783489008.post-31539618975455146912017-01-14T15:50:22.301-05:002017-01-14T15:50:22.301-05:00Again, I abhor ALL extremes. Women who consider th...Again, I abhor ALL extremes. Women who consider themselves feminists, and yet, don't mind wearing low cleavage and other clothing that reveals too much of their bodies, are really sabotaging themselves. They are making themselves sexual objects. This criticism goes for so-called "feminist art", as well. Judy Chicago, for instance, became famous by creating art based on women's genitals. I can accept her images as long as they remain abstract. But when they are overly graphic and realistic, I must object. She is then obviously playing right into the hands of misogynists by making female body parts the exclusive subject of her art. Men have NEVER made male body parts the exclusive subject of their art. True, there are such things as phallic images, but the great masters of Western art have never made such images their one and only subject matter. <br /><br />I once began to read an English translation of the Bhagavad Gita. The translator was the then leader of Krishna consciousness in the Western world -- A. C. Bhaktivedanta Swami Prabhupada, who passed away some time ago. I've always been interested in reading about other religions, and decided to investigate this sacred Hindu text. Well, at first, I found it very interesting. However, I stopped in disgust when I read a note by the translator. This note stated (I'm paraphrasing, as I don't remember the exact quote) that women have to be "controlled" and not allowed freedom of movement within a city, because women TEND to be morally loose, and so, would bring shame and disgrace upon a family!!! I saw RED when I read this!!! (Nice alliteration, right? Lol.) Now I regret not continuing to read, as it was the translator's note that infuriated me, and not the text itself. However, he was interpreting what the text was saying. This book has to be misogynistic to some extent, or Prabhupada would not have made such a statement. Still, I do regret not reading further, and thus, learning more about the tenets of the Hindu religion. <br /><br />I would like to go back and continue reading the Gita, but when I do, I will pick another translation. I'm thinking of the one by Stephen Mitchell. Sure, that might sound bigoted on my part. Mitchell is a Westerner, after all, and I'm sure he has more progressive ideas. At the risk of sounding redundant, I'm walking a tightrope here!<br /><br />Thanks for the thought-provoking post!! Hope you're having a WONDERFUL Saturday!! :) :) :) <br /><br />Maria Beharhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13635809880830316283noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4043273283783489008.post-11511797695476933182017-01-14T14:48:45.351-05:002017-01-14T14:48:45.351-05:00TERRIFIC post as usual, Brian!! I greatly enjoyed ...TERRIFIC post as usual, Brian!! I greatly enjoyed reading it!<br /><br />You know, for those of us who are either progressive or moderate, this is a very thorny issue indeed, as it combines bigotry, and women's rights. Ironically, in this case, these two issues seem to be at odds with each other.<br /><br />My answer to this is the same answer I give to all political issues: moderation is the key. Women's rights must be upheld, without a wholesale condemnation of this or any other religion. Unfortunately, most of the world's religions -- and this includes Christianity -- are patriarchal in nature and structure, so it's not surprising that they contain misogynistic elements. Pagan religions are perhaps less misogynistic, but still, even the ancient Greeks and Romans denigrated women, and THEY were pagans.<br /><br />While it is undoubtedly true that white men have been, and still are, responsible for most of the world's oppression of women and minorities, men of other ethnic groups should not be excused when their behavior toward women (and other ethnic groups) is oppressive and abusive. That is TOTALLY absurd.<br /><br />I am not very familiar with the religion of Islam. Unfortunately, it's the misogynistic aspects of it that have gotten the most worldwide attention, and thus, are probably the very ones most non-Muslims are familiar with. <br /><br />At the risk of being accused of bigotry, I have to say this: misogyny seems to be built-in to Islam. I wonder if the religion could remain the same if these elements were to be removed.<br /><br />This whole thing really calls for a lot of thought, and, I'm sure, many blog posts! It's like walking a tightrope; bigotry is not good, but neither is misogyny. If I were thinking of converting to another religion, I have to be honest and say that the very LAST one I would consider converting to would be Islam. Even as a Christian, I totally reject the notion that "the man is the head of the woman" while "Christ is the head of the man", and that women are supposed to be SUBMISSIVE to their husbands, which is something stated in the New Testament by both Peter and Paul. And I STRONGLY support women being pastors, priests, and rabbis. (Of course, Christianity's misogyny came directly from Judaism.)<br /><br />I'd like to offer a quote by Rebecca West:<br /><br />"I myself have never been able to find out precisely what feminism is. I only know that people call me a feminist whenever I express sentiments that differentiate me from a doormat."<br /><br />This is the whole crux of the matter. As a woman, I deeply resent being told that I MUST accept certain things in my life, JUST BECAUSE I'm a woman. Things like a lesser position in marriage and work. Things like disrespect. Things like being expected to "put out" when dating a man. Things like being considered a BODY first, and a mind last. Things like being told that I can't do such-and-such simply because "women are not supposed to do that". Things like being told that "women must be quiet in church" and "women are not to have spiritual authority over men". In short, being A DOORMAT. <br /><br />The basic problem with the misogynistic component of Islam is that men blame WOMEN for THEIR own lust. They consider women's bodies either their own or their fathers' properties, to do with as they will. From this springs the notion that women have to be all covered up so as not to TEMPT MEN. Certainly I am not advocating the opposite extreme, which is truly demeaning to women, as well.<br /><br />(more coming!)<br /><br />Maria Beharhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13635809880830316283noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4043273283783489008.post-82682016784602925262017-01-11T20:42:59.716-05:002017-01-11T20:42:59.716-05:00BTW Stefanie. I actually have a lot written on Cul...BTW Stefanie. I actually have a lot written on Cultural Relativism. But the post turned into a Many headed hydra with no end to it. I need to find a way to pair it down and get it under control. Brian Josephhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15139559400312336791noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4043273283783489008.post-17071302882261047062017-01-11T19:49:58.609-05:002017-01-11T19:49:58.609-05:00Hi Stefanie.
Indeed, all the major religions, as...Hi Stefanie. <br /><br />Indeed, all the major religions, as well as many of the not so big one, hold an enormous range of beliefs. Brian Josephhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15139559400312336791noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4043273283783489008.post-33509895459642699392017-01-11T19:47:41.761-05:002017-01-11T19:47:41.761-05:00Hi Tracy.
I have heard about some of the issues t...Hi Tracy.<br /><br />I have heard about some of the issues that you are facing in the UK. Hopefully tolerance and moderation will prevail. Brian Josephhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15139559400312336791noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4043273283783489008.post-91824120975703561302017-01-11T19:46:14.398-05:002017-01-11T19:46:14.398-05:00Thanks so much Sharon.
You and I do disagree on a...Thanks so much Sharon.<br /><br />You and I do disagree on a few things. But when I think about it, we share a lot of values. Brian Josephhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15139559400312336791noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4043273283783489008.post-13024955821951382312017-01-11T18:22:41.160-05:002017-01-11T18:22:41.160-05:00Hi Brian! Having read the Koran I am looking forw...Hi Brian! Having read the Koran I am looking forward to reading your thoughts and seeing your conclusions.<br /><br />I agree with you that we cannot make blanket statements about people who think or believe (or vote) differently than us. Accusing others of "bigotry" while claiming to be a "freethinker" is not only arrogant but, frankly, a bigoted statement to make.<br /><br />Which makes me appreciate all the more the fact that you, while allowing others to express their views, have always been respectful of people you don't always agree with (ahem). It's something I respect about you and one of the things that makes your blog enjoyable to read.<br /><br />I watch future posts with great interest. Take care Brian!Sharon Wilfonghttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17466621290140789056noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4043273283783489008.post-27451169452000443852017-01-11T14:41:23.116-05:002017-01-11T14:41:23.116-05:00What a thoughtful post! Saying all Muslims are X i...What a thoughtful post! Saying all Muslims are X is just like saying all Christians or all Jews are X, it doesn't hold water. Good analysis can't lump such a large and diverse group of people into a single entity. It's frustrating when politicians, media, anyone does it. I would very much enjoy a post by you on cultural relativism!Stefaniehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14943596258182968212noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4043273283783489008.post-25972635093338444522017-01-10T19:45:55.327-05:002017-01-10T19:45:55.327-05:00Brian Joseph,
Well, it should be interesting, how...Brian Joseph,<br /><br />Well, it should be interesting, however and whichever way it goes. Fredhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10233846613173866140noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4043273283783489008.post-15581268755730811892017-01-10T13:26:13.107-05:002017-01-10T13:26:13.107-05:00Hi Fred - I did want to make this post about the c...Hi Fred - I did want to make this post about the conversation regarding Islam. While I do not shy away from controversy, Islam is sick a big topic. One needs to keep posts focused. With that, as you mention, the conversation will inevitably involve Islam to some degree. <br /><br />I am also thinking about reading a book written by one of the Muslim reformers that o mention in my supplemental material. That will open up the subject even more. Brian Josephhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15139559400312336791noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4043273283783489008.post-61158358542439805692017-01-10T13:20:39.474-05:002017-01-10T13:20:39.474-05:00Hi James - Indeed there is a lot of negative steot...Hi James - Indeed there is a lot of negative steotypes about Muslims that get inflamed as a result of terrorism. I think that in the end, we will avoid the horrible things done to Japanese folks during World War II. But I think that ethical and reasonable people need to speak out about the dangers. Brian Josephhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15139559400312336791noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4043273283783489008.post-69896092338081963792017-01-10T11:46:46.056-05:002017-01-10T11:46:46.056-05:00Brian Joseph,
I forgot to mention that I have rea...Brian Joseph,<br /><br />I forgot to mention that I have read the Koran, but many years ago, so I will be looking forward to your insights on the Book. I think I still have my copy somewhere, gathering dust, so I may do a little rereading along the way.Fredhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10233846613173866140noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4043273283783489008.post-1163011002723884472017-01-10T11:44:15.479-05:002017-01-10T11:44:15.479-05:00Brian Joseph,
I can understand why you want to li...Brian Joseph,<br /><br />I can understand why you want to limit your discussion to the Koran and not Islam, considering what radical Islamists, and those inspired by them, are doing throughout the world today. One suggestion I may make is changing the title to the Koran, to spell out you are limiting your discussion to the Koran, and are not going to cover the much wider and landmine filled area of Islam, even though any discussion of the Book will inevitably lead to some discussion of its effects on the real world. Fredhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10233846613173866140noreply@blogger.com