tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4043273283783489008.post4089414098117536666..comments2024-02-29T02:54:19.767-05:00Comments on Babbling Books: White Fragility by Robin DiAngeloBrian Josephhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/15139559400312336791noreply@blogger.comBlogger36125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4043273283783489008.post-41673740000657053982019-08-12T16:31:50.918-04:002019-08-12T16:31:50.918-04:00Hi Susan - The arguments are provocative and extre...Hi Susan - The arguments are provocative and extreme. With that they are very popular in some quarters. Brian Josephhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15139559400312336791noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4043273283783489008.post-21773874443312967962019-08-12T11:17:56.436-04:002019-08-12T11:17:56.436-04:00This one sounds like a very strong cup of coffee a...This one sounds like a very strong cup of coffee and not one I'd agree with either. I hadn't heard of it and it seems like reading it would really rile a person up. I dont know why people's arguments go to such an extent. to be provocative and crazy ... thecuecardhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08870323589682197091noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4043273283783489008.post-73691441161702872882019-08-11T20:25:51.318-04:002019-08-11T20:25:51.318-04:00Hi Paula - It is amazing that academics are using ...Hi Paula - It is amazing that academics are using such bad faith arguments as Kafka Traps. Brian Josephhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15139559400312336791noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4043273283783489008.post-43484543359755500112019-08-11T19:42:01.863-04:002019-08-11T19:42:01.863-04:00I really like your description of the Kafka Trap h...I really like your description of the Kafka Trap here, which I've seen in play but never heard it described as such. It makes perfect sense, and explains something very problematic. I think I would have not liked the book that much, for similar reasons to those you've mentioned. Paula Vincehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02079952414990463270noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4043273283783489008.post-55542038597485720812019-08-10T12:46:56.940-04:002019-08-10T12:46:56.940-04:00Thanks Naida. A lot of these concepts are new to p...Thanks Naida. A lot of these concepts are new to people. But they are popular in certain quarters especially academia and social media. Brian Josephhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15139559400312336791noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4043273283783489008.post-23882365398210206872019-08-10T08:15:04.461-04:002019-08-10T08:15:04.461-04:00Hi Brian, amazing and thought provoking commentary...Hi Brian, amazing and thought provoking commentary as usual. I think if I read this one it would just annoy me. I had never heard about "white women’s tears".<br /><br /><br />The Bookwormhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10217390642323530030noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4043273283783489008.post-87789868822239056662019-08-05T03:37:42.088-04:002019-08-05T03:37:42.088-04:00Hi WG - I agree with you about generalizations. Th...Hi WG - I agree with you about generalizations. These philosophies have turned generalizations are based on generalizations. If folks looked at privilege as a complex attribute without all the baggage and silliness as you describe it I probably would not object to this concept so much. But it is almost never looked at with so much complexity these days. <br /><br />Based on my limited understanding of the history, what is being called postmodernism today, has some major differences from how the philosophy was originally formulated. Within the last month there was actually a debate on Twitter between groups of philosophers and social commutators as to what to call this intellectual trend. Some liked the term postmodernism some did not. I will be getting around to reading the original thinkers and I will have more to say about this. Brian Josephhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15139559400312336791noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4043273283783489008.post-8199107448751744522019-08-05T02:55:56.599-04:002019-08-05T02:55:56.599-04:00Wow, Brian, what an in-depth post. You are clearly...Wow, Brian, what an in-depth post. You are clearly becoming well-read on the topic.<br /><br />I hate generalisations. I know that like most people I do it myself at times, it is something I dislike intensely. It is SO patently obvious whenever you generalise about people that there are exceptions and not only that but that there is a spectrum, so it's not even most think this and a few exceptions think that, but that every person (every individual!) has his/her own shade of grey. Generalisations can be useful in certain circumstances - they are used all the time to make policy. Smoking is bad for you, is an example, and so it is banned, even though we know many smokers do not die of smoking related deaths. (To give an obvious example.) Of course many white people are privileged, but many many aren't, and some of those who are are privileged in some ways and not in others, and many who are privileged are highly empathetic and do not behave racistly. <br /><br />Racism as you and some of your commenters say is a significant issue, but to use a current cliche, it needs far more nuance than this theory seems to have. In fact, in a way, it sounds anti-postmodern in its tenacity to inflexible, rule-based thinking. (But my understanding of postmodernism is limited I know.Whispering Gumshttps://whisperinggums.comnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4043273283783489008.post-1852449432834520312019-08-04T22:11:43.873-04:002019-08-04T22:11:43.873-04:00Thanks so much Sharon. As you point out, oppressio...Thanks so much Sharon. As you point out, oppression, bias, discrimination, etc. is something we see in almost every corner of the Earth. It is not exclusive to white people. Individual agency is also an issue here. If all white people are racist and cannot help it, why bother to try not being racist? <br /><br />Imaginary evil is also a great term. There are indeed real problems that this stuff is distracting from. <br /><br />Have a great week! Brian Josephhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15139559400312336791noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4043273283783489008.post-26899126573994375352019-08-04T21:27:53.337-04:002019-08-04T21:27:53.337-04:00Wow, Brian. This is a brilliant review. I would ...Wow, Brian. This is a brilliant review. I would rather call it a commentary. This post would fit well in the Wall Street Journal.<br /><br />People like DeAngelo are interesting because it seems they believe they can determine their own reality without supporting it with provable facts. She ignores most of the world where supremism and oppression reigns without any white people in the population. I'm thinking of India with its caste system and the "Dalits" or untouchables. The child sex trade in Thailand and other Asian countries, and not to mention several African countries where people identify tribally and the tribe in power shows no mercy to the other tribes, even though they belong to the same country.<br /><br />Then the persecution happening in middle eastern countries based on which religion or sect is in power...It disturbs me that people, like DeAngelo, want to ignore the actual problems in this country and create false problems and falsely accuse people of creating these problems.<br /><br />I guess it's easier to decry imaginary evil than tackle the real problems that exist. Maybe because it involves personal responsibility, rather than blaming others. They refuse to see that acknowledging autonomy over one's own life is empowering.<br /><br />Anyway, I deeply appreciate your editorial. Sorry if I'm being "gushing", but I really like your post.Sharon Wilfonghttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17466621290140789056noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4043273283783489008.post-75062929198539914322019-08-04T20:55:19.317-04:002019-08-04T20:55:19.317-04:00Hi Susan- It is amazing how divisive and insulting...Hi Susan- It is amazing how divisive and insulting to humanity in general these increasingly influential ideology has become. Brian Josephhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15139559400312336791noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4043273283783489008.post-43062493997636739692019-08-04T20:54:03.531-04:002019-08-04T20:54:03.531-04:00Glad to see you active on the book blogosphere Rac...Glad to see you active on the book blogosphere Rachel. As I mentioned, I think that there are good reasons to read this. It is actually a good primer on where critical race theory is these days. Brian Josephhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15139559400312336791noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4043273283783489008.post-65455260466086135612019-08-04T19:45:15.981-04:002019-08-04T19:45:15.981-04:00AS I read this, I found myself saying: What? Serio...AS I read this, I found myself saying: What? Seriously?<br /><br />Divisive indeed. Insulting as well.Susan Kanehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09834094675218254410noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4043273283783489008.post-39195208392550231122019-08-04T19:40:44.546-04:002019-08-04T19:40:44.546-04:00Thanks for the fantastic review of the book. I'...Thanks for the fantastic review of the book. I've been thinking of reading this, and I still might even though I totally see (and agree with your points). I, too, have problems with the way the word "privilege" is used these days. <br /><br />Good to see you around!Rachelhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14629744053780948715noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4043273283783489008.post-76645457353370868022019-08-02T16:56:59.273-04:002019-08-02T16:56:59.273-04:00Hi Hila - I have not read The Coddling of The Amer...Hi Hila - I have not read The Coddling of The American Mind. I should. On the other hand I think that things are moving so fast regarding these debates that there is some tendency for these books to get outdated. <br /><br />There differentiation that you describe has intensified. Right now I would describe a great debate going on between what I will call the postmodern left and the humanist left. With that, as I have written before, I do not think that the humanist left is that far from moderate conservatives, moderate religious folks, classical liberals, etc. <br /><br />I agree that this stuff is not doing anymore any good. It is not addressing the real serious problems that you mention. <br /><br />I also agree that White Women’s Tears is often a concept to spew misogyny and abuse. Brian Josephhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15139559400312336791noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4043273283783489008.post-71668424167461006302019-08-02T15:50:44.234-04:002019-08-02T15:50:44.234-04:00Did you read The Coddling of the American Mind? Th...Did you read The Coddling of the American Mind? The authors talk about two kinds of identity politics. In one, you may be fighting for the rights of a particular group, but you're taking a "common humanity" approach and pointing out how your group shares common human traits, dignity, etc. with others. The other kind of identity politics pit groups against each other.<br /><br />I've seen some of the ideas from White Fragility appear in articles, blog posts, and social media... I just don't see how this way of thinking improves anything. I mean, you can easily dismiss any disagreement as racism (or maybe internalized racism if it's coming from someone who isn't white - which is another issue I've seen. People will say, "Listen to Group X" when what they really mean is "Listen to the people in Group X who agree with me"). I have no clue how any of this helps people who are struggling with homelessness, huge medical bills, job loss, poor physical and mental health, injustice from the court system, whether they're black, white, Hispanic, etc. It seems to just give some people an easy way to pat themselves on the back for supposedly being aware of their racism and learning the related lingo.<br /><br />As for "white women's tears," I've seen this used in ugly ways against people. Like a pass for sexism and misogyny, provided you pick the "right language."HKatzhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17653570160517335758noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4043273283783489008.post-33136750495208783442019-08-01T18:17:08.714-04:002019-08-01T18:17:08.714-04:00Hi CyberKitten - I tend to get into some lot of co...Hi CyberKitten - I tend to get into some lot of conversations on social media about social issues. A particular group is recommending this book left and right. At least I can say that I read it. The experience has turned me further away from this philosophy. <br /><br />I am OK with a moderate form of identity politics, as long as it does not turn towards white nationalism or postmodernism. Brian Josephhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15139559400312336791noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4043273283783489008.post-18558529487751765052019-08-01T17:32:07.595-04:002019-08-01T17:32:07.595-04:00An excellent review - as I've come to expect f...An excellent review - as I've come to expect from you! As you probably know I have very little time for Identity Politics and what definitely sounds like Virtue Signaling. I'm impressed that you made it all the way through the book knowing you disagreed with some much of it. You're definitely a better man, made of sterner stuff, than I am! This wasn't exactly on my radar (although it does pop up on my "Amazon recommends" from time to time) and I'll definitely keep avoiding it! CyberKittenhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06394155516712665665noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4043273283783489008.post-52963948291557463132019-08-01T16:16:02.002-04:002019-08-01T16:16:02.002-04:00Thanks Judy. Though not too popular with the gener...Thanks Judy. Though not too popular with the general public, critical race theory and other postmodern theories are extremely popular in some quarters of academia and social media. Its adherents are really pushing this book. If you search Robin DiAngelo’s name or the term White Fragility on Twitter, you will find that the book is being recommended very frequently. Brian Josephhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15139559400312336791noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4043273283783489008.post-49581239141154951592019-08-01T15:57:59.885-04:002019-08-01T15:57:59.885-04:00OK good. I don't need to read this except for,...OK good. I don't need to read this except for, as you say, to get a sense of this example of critical race theory (did I say that correctly?) Generalizations based on faulty scholarship or just plain lazy thinking or ignorance are the bane of mankind's efforts to understand ourselves. I wonder why this book is so popular. I would suppose people are looking for answers and at least are thinking about the problem (to be generous) or just want someone else to give them answers. You did a good job of explication here. Maybe you should be a professor!Judy Kruegerhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11632346091869688862noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4043273283783489008.post-87779187136993004262019-08-01T10:17:04.178-04:002019-08-01T10:17:04.178-04:00Hi James - Indeed it seems a variation on the stol...Hi James - Indeed it seems a variation on the stolen concept. You hit the problem with postmodernist thought right own the head. Arguments and truth are not evaluated. Only the identity of the person making the argument is. Brian Josephhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15139559400312336791noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4043273283783489008.post-56128176930168178152019-08-01T08:34:10.521-04:002019-08-01T08:34:10.521-04:00Brian,
Thanks for an interesting review. I agree w...Brian,<br />Thanks for an interesting review. I agree with you and would argue the the so-called "Kafka trap" is a variant on the idea of the stolen concept; eg. if you claim that there is no such thing as truth, your claim cannot logically be true. I am at a loss of how to discuss issues like this if one side does not recognize the other's honest beliefs.Jameshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00561320676355168336noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4043273283783489008.post-13802668130370274052019-07-31T22:24:34.308-04:002019-07-31T22:24:34.308-04:00Hi Sue - DiAngelo does a lot of speaking engagemen...Hi Sue - DiAngelo does a lot of speaking engagements. <br /><br />This book is very popular with people who read it. I think DiAngelo is preaching to the choir. If you search her name on Twitter, the people who read the book tend to be already friendly to postmodern ideas. <br /><br />Brian Josephhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15139559400312336791noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4043273283783489008.post-35445991115191042452019-07-31T21:11:28.758-04:002019-07-31T21:11:28.758-04:00Dear me, “When did you stop beating your wife?”, e...Dear me, “When did you stop beating your wife?”, eh? I’ve never heard of this author or her books, but on a Google I see she was here in Melbourne last December, speaking st the Wheeler Centre, which does panels about literature. I also see this book is on Goodreads, with a 4.5 rating. I must read a few of those reviews later, just to see what people loved so much! Sue Bursztynskihttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09362273418897882971noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4043273283783489008.post-26506141841915251612019-07-31T20:08:54.284-04:002019-07-31T20:08:54.284-04:00Thanks Laurie. Racism is indeed a scourge. The bes...Thanks Laurie. Racism is indeed a scourge. The best solutions are rooted in the concepts of equality, not stereotyping, reason, empathy, etc. Not in postmodernism. The far right and far left do indeed sound like each other. Trump and DiAngelo have things in common. The White Women’s Tears thing is chilling. Brian Josephhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15139559400312336791noreply@blogger.com