tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4043273283783489008.post421328670656116363..comments2024-02-29T02:54:19.767-05:00Comments on Babbling Books: The Ideological Origins of the American Revolution by Bernard Bailyn Brian Josephhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/15139559400312336791noreply@blogger.comBlogger30125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4043273283783489008.post-4832703300305169772015-09-29T21:15:25.923-04:002015-09-29T21:15:25.923-04:00Brian, those readers need to toughen up or stick t...Brian, those readers need to toughen up or stick to their beloved historical fiction fluff pieces! :DRichardhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01746599416342846897noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4043273283783489008.post-73080269020396510932015-09-27T20:15:26.523-04:002015-09-27T20:15:26.523-04:00Hi Richard - Indeed the histories of Republics abo...Hi Richard - Indeed the histories of Republics abound with indefensible actions including Imperialism.<br /><br />Though folks like you and I might not find it too dry, I think that folks who are more accustomed to reading more recent histories where writing style seems to be given more emphasis might find the style here a little unengaging.Brian Josephhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15139559400312336791noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4043273283783489008.post-5275390837616515342015-09-26T10:31:04.353-04:002015-09-26T10:31:04.353-04:00Great book, Brian, and although I read it too long...Great book, Brian, and although I read it too long ago to dispute your critique of the "dry" nature of the writing, the fact that the book won both the Pulitzer Prize and the Bancroft prize more than justifies the high praise you give it in the remainder of your post (Bailyn's "The Ordeal of Thomas Hutchinson" is also pretty great as I recall). By the way, those who find the history of American democracy and U.S. imperialism to be "very confusing" and perhaps contradictory might well brush up on their world history before attempting to understand the American variant; Athenian democracy was also accompanied by slavery and imperialism, so the combination of democracy and imperialism is at least 2,500 years ago and not at all unique to the American experience even though most of us would probably agree that it's a betrayal of the democratic ideal(s).Richardhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01746599416342846897noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4043273283783489008.post-31705116652504941692015-09-21T22:58:20.554-04:002015-09-21T22:58:20.554-04:00Hi Violet - The things that you mention were indee...Hi Violet - The things that you mention were indeed very anti - democratic trends in American History. Such issues were debated at this time. Like many things, the history of the United States is full of contradictions. <br /><br />I totally agree, the pamphleteers were indeed a lot like modern day bloggers.Brian Josephhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15139559400312336791noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4043273283783489008.post-63628618290421463652015-09-21T22:05:43.462-04:002015-09-21T22:05:43.462-04:00I have to admit that I find American politics very...I have to admit that I find American politics very confusing: it just doesn't look exactly democratic from the outside, and the history of American Imperialism, especially in South America, and the whole slavery thing, is all puzzling to me. I don't know anything much about American history, and I don't think this book would be the best place to start learning, but it does sound like an excellent text for those really interested in the subject.<br /><br />I like the way that people were able to publish their thoughts and engage in arguments via pamphlets - sort of like modern-day blogging, in a way. :)Violethttp://still-life-with-books.comnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4043273283783489008.post-89690628180653885182015-09-21T08:56:01.215-04:002015-09-21T08:56:01.215-04:00Hi Hila- You raise a very good point about imperia...Hi Hila- You raise a very good point about imperialism and Democracy.<br /><br />I believe that several thinkers of the time addressed the issue. Jefferson in particular was concerned about it and believed that imperialism would ruin a Republic.<br /><br />I have not read Sheldon Wolin but I just Googled him. He looks to a writer that I would like.Brian Josephhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15139559400312336791noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4043273283783489008.post-68508641114237342462015-09-21T00:58:54.803-04:002015-09-21T00:58:54.803-04:00I'm making a note of this one; thanks for the ...I'm making a note of this one; thanks for the excellent review. You raise a lot of the important issues currently debated (though most politicians would probably want ignorant constituents, as they can make anything of history they like). There's also a question (I think I saw this brought out in a Sheldon Wolin book) of how we can manage to maintain a democracy at home while exercising imperial powers abroad. Did the founding fathers ever conceive of such a thing?HKatzhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17653570160517335758noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4043273283783489008.post-39997684494665292442015-09-20T03:02:46.285-04:002015-09-20T03:02:46.285-04:00Hi, again!
You're right -- it was the Protes...Hi, again! <br /><br />You're right -- it was the Protestants who were responsible for the eventual decentralization of power. It seems that every modern nation where Protestantism is the predominant religious viewpoint has a history of democracy and democratic ideals. These countries are more secular, as well. <br /><br />My knowledge of these matters is, alas, very inadequate indeed....I am greatly indebted to you and your wonderful posts for acquainting me with the historical currents and eddies involved. : ) Maria Beharhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13635809880830316283noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4043273283783489008.post-86292494488750457072015-09-18T23:25:07.189-04:002015-09-18T23:25:07.189-04:00Hi Rachel - I used to me more interested in the Ba...Hi Rachel - I used to me more interested in the Battles and now I also am more interested in the other stuff. The American Revolution in particular was a lot more then battles, as books like this illustrate.<br /><br />Brian Josephhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15139559400312336791noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4043273283783489008.post-61747063626889818462015-09-18T23:22:24.039-04:002015-09-18T23:22:24.039-04:00Thanks so much Maria.
Enlightenment ideals did pl...Thanks so much Maria.<br /><br />Enlightenment ideals did play a major part in driving the American Revolution.<br /><br /><br />But so did a Protestant distrust of central authority and power. This sort of paralleled Protestant distrust of the Catholic Church, which also represented centralized power.<br /><br />Brian Josephhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15139559400312336791noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4043273283783489008.post-73491839442663464712015-09-18T17:45:24.318-04:002015-09-18T17:45:24.318-04:00Sounds like a really good book Brian! I'm woef...Sounds like a really good book Brian! I'm woefully under-read about war in general, so I doubt I'd be able to bully through this one. My dad says he really enjoyed it, though. He's had a specific interest in the ideologies of WHY these educated men would rebel against their government. This book was exactly what he was looking for. <br /><br />As far as war books go, I'm much more interested in the sociology of war than the battles. Why do people fight? What impact did it have on local and world society? Things like that. Rachelhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14629744053780948715noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4043273283783489008.post-20680028851576053912015-09-18T14:28:22.216-04:002015-09-18T14:28:22.216-04:00I think I included this book in a blog post about ...I think I included this book in a blog post about excellent July 4th reads, a couple of years ago. I must confess to not having read it yet, though. Now that I have a blog dedicated to classics, literary fiction, and nonfiction, I must definitely get to it!<br /><br />How interesting that the author discusses the role of pamphleteers in this work. I had no idea they had such an important role in the American Revolution. I do remember reading Paine's "Common Sense" in high school though.<br /><br />I have always had the impression that it was Enlightenment ideals that drove the American Revolution. The Catholic Church usually backed monarchies, with this whole notion of the divine right of kings.<br /><br />As always, your commemtary is very interesting and thorough. Superb job, Brian!! : )Maria Beharhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13635809880830316283noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4043273283783489008.post-72189470901868112842015-09-17T23:26:05.716-04:002015-09-17T23:26:05.716-04:00Hi Susan - Indeed this book is less accessible the...Hi Susan - Indeed this book is less accessible then many of the more popular histories.<br /><br />If you are interested in the era, it might be worth a try however. If you do try it I would be curious as to what you think. Brian Josephhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15139559400312336791noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4043273283783489008.post-66154107269366761532015-09-17T18:31:30.062-04:002015-09-17T18:31:30.062-04:00Hi Brian, too bad the author doesn't make th...Hi Brian, too bad the author doesn't make the info in his book more accessible to the lay person or reader like me. I like history (in fact I was a history major long ago!) but now I like reading history for pleasure. This one sounds very interesting but perhaps it's written too dry. It seems like a good grad student text. But I am interested in the American Revolution ... and the Colonial period for sure. Cheers.thecuecardhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08870323589682197091noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4043273283783489008.post-58174681133283263522015-09-17T00:48:24.765-04:002015-09-17T00:48:24.765-04:00Thanks Suko. The pamphleteers were fascinating. Th...Thanks Suko. The pamphleteers were fascinating. They seemed to engage in such a rich and vibrant communication and exchange of ideas.Brian Josephhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15139559400312336791noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4043273283783489008.post-25546604383047374382015-09-17T00:42:49.806-04:002015-09-17T00:42:49.806-04:00Brian Joseph, this really does sound fascinating, ...Brian Joseph, this really does sound fascinating, even though I sometimes lack the patience for "dry" history books (I favor historical fiction these days). I'm interested to learn more about the Pamphleteers. Excellent commentary, as always.Sukohttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11893742747135555499noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4043273283783489008.post-59140390728247450512015-09-16T22:47:30.054-04:002015-09-16T22:47:30.054-04:00Hi Gary - I do think that one needs to be very int...Hi Gary - I do think that one needs to be very interested in these subjects to enjoy this book. <br /><br />The enlightenment religion thing does dig a bit into more general Western Culture.Brian Josephhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15139559400312336791noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4043273283783489008.post-4783581902162998692015-09-16T22:45:09.363-04:002015-09-16T22:45:09.363-04:00Hi Heidi - At times the Pamphleteers were inflamma...Hi Heidi - At times the Pamphleteers were inflammatory and downright nasty. Others were reasoned and analytical.<br /><br />Though there is a lot of lowbrow simplicity on today's social media, there is also a lot of depth and nuance if one looks for it. Some can even be found on our blogs.<br /><br />Brian Josephhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15139559400312336791noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4043273283783489008.post-79946309670255397052015-09-16T15:34:48.444-04:002015-09-16T15:34:48.444-04:00Not sure this appeals as a whole, although funny e...Not sure this appeals as a whole, although funny enough the secular verses religion as influences does hold some interest for me @parridhlanternhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12793548943992250238noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4043273283783489008.post-15123370938535552032015-09-16T11:42:12.924-04:002015-09-16T11:42:12.924-04:00This actually sounds wonderful. Thanks for the rec...This actually sounds wonderful. Thanks for the recommendation. The Pamphleteers actually interest me as well. I always thought it was interesting that John Adams bought 2 copies of Common Sense when it first came out. One for himself and one for Abigail Adams. A pamphlet at least could give room for some logical argument. (I'm sure many were inflammatory/emotional and illogical.) On facebook both right and left political parties have those one-picture memes that are inflammatory but leave the logic far behind.Heidi’sbookshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15647096496574605262noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4043273283783489008.post-86388355078958175522015-09-15T23:03:46.462-04:002015-09-15T23:03:46.462-04:00Thanks Sharon. The legality of the rebellion was i...Thanks Sharon. The legality of the rebellion was indeed a subject of debate in that time also.<br /><br />Though not exactly a legality issue, as someone who does believe that violence can be justified when resisting oppression, tyranny or aggression, I think that it is difficult to justify violence in the name of resisting British rule in the case of the Colonists.Brian Josephhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15139559400312336791noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4043273283783489008.post-81658658276943344942015-09-15T23:00:09.097-04:002015-09-15T23:00:09.097-04:00Hi Naida - I understand that the pamphleteers did ...Hi Naida - I understand that the pamphleteers did a great impact on the French Revolution also.<br /><br />I think that I would compare them more to social media as opposed to mainstream media. There really was a randomness it seems like any member of the middle class and up could participate. (I would be remiss if I did not mention that this middle class was exclusively white. Also, such communications activities were almost exclusively only available to men.)<br /><br />Brian Josephhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15139559400312336791noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4043273283783489008.post-66587690447802850952015-09-15T22:53:08.142-04:002015-09-15T22:53:08.142-04:00Hi James - As you point out, the ideas explored in...Hi James - As you point out, the ideas explored in this book helped not just to formulate those historic documents, but government and civil society in the United States and beyond.Brian Josephhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15139559400312336791noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4043273283783489008.post-26176371495057393292015-09-15T22:51:03.194-04:002015-09-15T22:51:03.194-04:00Hi Dwight - I have not read anything else by Baily...Hi Dwight - I have not read anything else by Bailyn. Thanks for the recommendation, I will look for those books too.Brian Josephhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15139559400312336791noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4043273283783489008.post-78338871376482362322015-09-15T20:12:26.539-04:002015-09-15T20:12:26.539-04:00Great review, Brian! This sounds like a fantastic...Great review, Brian! This sounds like a fantastic book. You know my husband and I have an ongoing debate about the legitimacy of the American Revolution. (I think it was legitimate and he thinks it was an illegal rebellion). I'd be interested to read this book and see what it has to say. I'm going to go put it on my Amazon wish list so I don't forget. Have a great day!Gently Madhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10450371589766691273noreply@blogger.com