tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4043273283783489008.post4687202462229588782..comments2024-02-29T02:54:19.767-05:00Comments on Babbling Books: Against Our Will: Men, Women, and Rape by Susan Brownmiller Part IBrian Josephhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/15139559400312336791noreply@blogger.comBlogger34125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4043273283783489008.post-27359267011543920012015-03-21T22:09:30.616-04:002015-03-21T22:09:30.616-04:00Hi Maria - Ultimatly I think the self defense opti...Hi Maria - Ultimatly I think the self defense option is not a bad one and I am not against it.<br /><br />I am very aware of the outrage over The Fifty Shades books in the feminist camp. I am firmly in that camp but disagree with my wonderful friends on this one :)<br /><br />I do not believe that criticism of speech nor voluntary boycotts is censorship Art is fair game for both. I do also agree that from what I can tell, the male protagonist in the film is a terrible person and that such relationships often end with a women who is injured, killed, or in a shelter. <br /><br />With all that I am not sure if these stories are advocating this sort of relationship. If they are then I am for the boycott. I think that it safe to say neither one of us is likely one of us us likely to read these books or see this film:) Thus I can never be reallly sure.Brian Josephhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15139559400312336791noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4043273283783489008.post-77082922604029914262015-03-21T18:35:02.584-04:002015-03-21T18:35:02.584-04:00Hi, again, Brian!
Thanks for complimenting my pre...Hi, again, Brian!<br /><br />Thanks for complimenting my previous comment, as well as for your very detailed reply!<br /><br />I do see your point about the martial arts requirement, but think that it would make for a more level "playing field". It would also do much to change the perception of women as weaker than men, which of course we are, physically speaking. However, with martial arts, other things, such as swiftness and agility, are more important than strength.<br /><br />As for the "Fifty Shades" controversy, I do wish these books had NEVER been published!! I say this even though I abhor censorship. These books are dangerous because of the way they can influence young minds, as well as the position of women as a group in society. Although I have not read them, I HAVE read excerpts online, and these were disgusting and degrading. Also, I have read the Wikipedia article about the first book, "Fifty Shades of Grey", which includes a plot summary of the book. There are also Wikipedia articles for the other two books in the trilogy -- "Fifty Shades Darker", and "Fifty Shades Freed".<br /><br />Two very important facts about these books are also very alarming and disturbing, which is why feminists, including Brownmiller, are so much against them: 1.) Christian Grey's behavior is "excused" because he was himself seduced and introduced to the BDSM lifestyle by an older woman in his past, and 2.) by the end of the third book, Anastasia's love (she is the female protagonist) has "redeemed" him from his abusive, controlling behavior.<br /><br />No woman can "redeems" or change an abusive, controlling man, no matter how much she loves him! This is a TOTALLY UNREALISTIC aspect of these books, and is the ultimate female fantasy. I know, because I myself have been enthralled by this fantasy, which is behind the classic "Beauty and the Beast" fairy tale, as well as all of its retellings.<br /><br />So you see why there is so much OUTRAGE about these books, and the recent film, in the feminist camp!<br /><br />Thanks again for your thoughts!! : )<br /> Maria Beharhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13635809880830316283noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4043273283783489008.post-84107547458201279552015-03-21T14:33:05.710-04:002015-03-21T14:33:05.710-04:00Hi Maria - Thanks for the great comment.
The US m...Hi Maria - Thanks for the great comment.<br /><br />The US military hiring and setting up camps of prostitutes in the Korean and Vietnam reflects the very unfortunate story of a lot of wars fought by a lot of countries. Brownmiller points out that many of the women and girls who were prostitutes were forced by terrible circumstances to be there. This is particularly disturbing. <br /><br />The self - defense thing for women is interesting. I have observed on social media that when someone brings this up on social media, mist, but not all feminist react negatively. I seems that the reasoning is that women changing behavior is not the solution to rape but it is men who need to change. Though I agree with the basis of this I find that many feminists take this a bit too far and thus oppose some common sense and logical protective measures that people should take to protect themselves. Brownmiller, for her part, at least in this book is an advocate of women learning martial arts to defend themselves. I agree that it could not hurt and likely help, at least a little.<br /><br />I myself do not like a lot of cultural practices that subtly demean women like the farther of the bride giving the women away. On the other hand culture and traditional are complicated. I think that discussing these things is important. In light of such debate folks should decide whether they want to follow these traditions or not. <br /><br />The entire diminishing the concept of being a women or a girl in culture does need to change. Though it was initiated by a corporation for advertising reasons, I am a big advocate of the Like a Girl Campaign which is trying to challenge these perceptions.<br /><br />I do find the Fifty Shades of Grey thing complicated. Donating to a shelter for survivors of domestic abuse IS the thing to do. I have done so.<br /><br /> I have not read the books or seen the film, thus I am hesitant to dig into this too deeply. I THINK that this story is popular because it is a fantasy for many. I have heard that the male protagonist in a classic abusive/manipulator. Such men are a big problem in society. But such fantasies do sometimes involve behavior that in reality would be destructive and dangerous. I am not sure if such fictional accounts of these things should be boycotted by those inclined to read or watch. As such I am hesitant to join the chorus of condemnation. This one is, admittedly, complicated.Brian Josephhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15139559400312336791noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4043273283783489008.post-14107475539525589952015-03-21T12:55:32.036-04:002015-03-21T12:55:32.036-04:00This is a very important book indeed, Brian, and I...This is a very important book indeed, Brian, and I'm so glad you've taken the time to read it and post your excellent commentary on it!<br /><br />I read it years ago, but should read it again, in order to review it for my blog. Its message is, unfortunately, still very much relevant today, even though, as you've stated in your review, parts of it are dated. You also point out that Brownmiller covers this unpleasant subject from several angles, thus providing a very thorough overview of it. Of course, this is the book's greatest strength. After all, there's no arguing with the facts!<br /><br />The most shocking detail about this book that has stayed with me through the years is this one: in BOTH the Korean and Vietnam wars, the U.S. Army actually HIRED women from those countries as prostitutes, and set up brothels in both countries. This was done so that the soldiers would have a means of satisfying their sexual needs, and thus, not rape the local women every time they invaded towns and villages!! How SICK is that?!<br /><br />This brings up the whole disgusting, totally UNFAIR idea of "the double standard", which has poisoned relations between men and women for centuries. The idea that men need to have sex, whether in or out of marriage, yet women are supposed to be "virtuous" and "virginal" is behind the reality of rape. A lot of men feel that they have a "right" to sex, and if they can't find a willing woman, then they go out and rape one. It's all about power and control.<br /><br />If I were president of the United States, or a legislator in Congress, I would do my very utmost to pass a law that required every single little girl in this country to be trained in martial arts, starting at the age of 7. That wouldn't stop ALL rape, of course, but it would certainly go a long way in deterring potential rapists. But then, we need to go beyond that. We need to empower women, to change the entire cultural view of women as being "less than" men. Heck, we even need to change the traditional wedding ceremony, in which a father "gives his daughter away"! He is, of course, giving up his own "control" of his daughter, and her new husband then "takes over". This might sound very protective of women, but I see it (and many feminists would agree) as actually being demeaning to a woman.<br /><br />I'm so glad that Brownmiller is highly critical of "Fifty Shades of Grey"! I'm also saddened, angry, and totally surprised that so many women love this sick, disgusting stuff. Who brainwashed them? Hasn't the feminist movement had any impact on these women? As you know, when the movie first came out in February, right around Valentine's Day, I posted a LOT of tweets in support of donating $50.00 to women's shelters, and boycotting this movie. <br /><br />Thank you so much for your great review!! Now on to your second post about this book!! : )Maria Beharhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13635809880830316283noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4043273283783489008.post-31260477516621021292015-03-17T07:12:08.556-04:002015-03-17T07:12:08.556-04:00Since many were asking and wondering, Susan Brownm...Since many were asking and wondering, Susan Brownmiller has commented on Fifty Shades of Grey. Unsurprisingly, she is highly critical of it. <br /><br />This is also an informative interview in other ways. <br /><br />https://drive.google.com/file/d/0B9UnH4EZEGnVRUZ0Z2VYc2FEUkU/viewBrian Josephhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15139559400312336791noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4043273283783489008.post-81046233268531400072015-02-26T20:17:00.851-05:002015-02-26T20:17:00.851-05:00Hi Miguel - You are very welcome. It is a really i...Hi Miguel - You are very welcome. It is a really important one, not just because of its subject matter but because of its cultural impact.Brian Josephhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15139559400312336791noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4043273283783489008.post-20474086335273145092015-02-26T11:53:09.796-05:002015-02-26T11:53:09.796-05:00Brian, thanks for bringing this book to my attenti...Brian, thanks for bringing this book to my attention.LMRhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08538873868140070018noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4043273283783489008.post-24728469669150462822015-02-25T16:01:27.701-05:002015-02-25T16:01:27.701-05:00Hi Tracy - I misunderstood your previous comment. ...Hi Tracy - I misunderstood your previous comment. In terms of alcohol and constant I do not recall it being delved into in the book. Had this work been written today I suspect it would be addressed as lack of consent, alcohol and rape have become major feminist issues. I have spoken out to the effect that a very inebriated person cannot give consent and any kind of intercourse with such a person is rape.<br /><br />Thanks for that link as it seems that the case is close to a case study on the problem.<br /><br />The murder relating to Fifty Shades Grey film has been a topic amoung feminists in social media. The works have generally been condemned and the miser, at least in part blamed on the film.<br /><br />I have mixed and complex thoughts on the film and the book. Not having read or seen it muddles my life views even further. With all that I am very hesitant to blame such violence directly on a piece of fiction regardless of what the perpetrators say were thier motivations.Brian Josephhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15139559400312336791noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4043273283783489008.post-65543905551211734582015-02-25T11:18:02.312-05:002015-02-25T11:18:02.312-05:00I was more interested to know if she made any conn...I was more interested to know if she made any connections/had any thoughts about alcohol and rape. Very topical in the UK at the moment. Here is a link to one case that is being highly debated ....<br /><br />http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/uknews/crime/11409596/Rape-consent-trial-led-to-landmark-appeal.html<br /><br />That said .... Re: Fifty Shades. Whilst doing my research for my Monday media post I had noticed a rape case in which the reading of the book has been cited as a contributory factor.Felicity Grace Terryhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17852843882007267665noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4043273283783489008.post-58082887370871200982015-02-24T21:08:24.705-05:002015-02-24T21:08:24.705-05:00Hi Lainy - Thanks for the good word
I think that ...Hi Lainy - Thanks for the good word<br /><br />I think that there are so many important books out there that One cannot hope to get to or hear about all the important ones. I also think that one has to focus upon what one is particularly interested in.Brian Josephhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15139559400312336791noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4043273283783489008.post-28730343182491245322015-02-24T08:45:41.832-05:002015-02-24T08:45:41.832-05:00It amazes me that there are still so many importan...It amazes me that there are still so many important books on subjects like this and I haven't heard of them. This sounds like a harrowing read however, it sounds like it highlights many important issues and factors.<br /><br />Thanks for an insightful review, as always, Brian.<br /><br />Lainy http://www.alwaysreading.netSo many books, so little timehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07564778178609301461noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4043273283783489008.post-91676157676697221642015-02-23T21:35:28.786-05:002015-02-23T21:35:28.786-05:00Hi Naida - The historical nature of rape form a ma...Hi Naida - The historical nature of rape form a major part of Brwnmiller's theories. She makes a convincing argument that armies generally commit a lot of rape whether or not the local men or present.<br /><br />One horrible tragedy was that in some conflict, particularly the Bengali Civil war, many men disowned their wives after they were raped.Brian Josephhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15139559400312336791noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4043273283783489008.post-60679329635633064972015-02-23T21:31:10.726-05:002015-02-23T21:31:10.726-05:00Hi Guy - The Fifty Shades of Gray phenomenon and t...Hi Guy - The Fifty Shades of Gray phenomenon and the Feminist reaction to it are interesting. See my above answer to Kate for more details.<br /><br /><br />Brownmiller does have theories on masochism and how that relates to rape.Brian Josephhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15139559400312336791noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4043273283783489008.post-84737243920910400832015-02-23T21:27:54.655-05:002015-02-23T21:27:54.655-05:00Hi Tracy - I am not sure if Brpwnmiller has anythi...Hi Tracy - I am not sure if Brpwnmiller has anything to say about Fifty Shades of Gray or not. <br /><br /><br />There is a major feminist backlash against the books and the film going on right now on social media.<br /><br />The book talks about alcohol a little. I do not think that there were any major points made on the subject however.Brian Josephhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15139559400312336791noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4043273283783489008.post-45453460216352281982015-02-23T21:24:56.867-05:002015-02-23T21:24:56.867-05:00Hi Caroline - As I mentioned in my original post o...Hi Caroline - As I mentioned in my original post on Feminism, this has been an eye opening experience for me to.<br /><br />It seems that there are several books on rape out there, they actually looked to be heavily influenced by this one.<br /><br />In many ways the book is not dated. Just the few points that I mentioned show are indicative of the fact that a lot have has happened in the world since this was written.Brian Josephhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15139559400312336791noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4043273283783489008.post-80882690776126110562015-02-23T16:54:37.971-05:002015-02-23T16:54:37.971-05:00This sounds like an interesting read on such an im...This sounds like an interesting read on such an important issue. Interesting that the author covers historical events here as well. During wars it must have been a horrific thing for the women who were left behind at home while the men to fight. The dangers they faced at being alone, rape being one major one.<br />I look forward to your future posts on this book.The Bookwormhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10217390642323530030noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4043273283783489008.post-20265879195106811052015-02-23T11:04:25.431-05:002015-02-23T11:04:25.431-05:00Brian: I had to stop by and leave a comment. When ...Brian: I had to stop by and leave a comment. When looking for a book this am I came across one called: Spank your Secretary: In Space No One Can Hear You. Had to laugh given the whole Fifty Shades of Twaddle furor. Guy Savagehttp://www.swiftlytiltingplanet.wordpress.comnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4043273283783489008.post-655504102049463802015-02-23T10:51:24.849-05:002015-02-23T10:51:24.849-05:00Sounds like a harrowing read and yet one well wort...Sounds like a harrowing read and yet one well worth the read. I too couldn't help but wonder what the author would make of books such as Fifty Shades Of Grey.<br /><br />With rape and alcohol much in the news here in England I'd be especially keen to know if the author has any particular thoughts on this combination. Felicity Grace Terryhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17852843882007267665noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4043273283783489008.post-69820068288193269652015-02-23T09:42:37.440-05:002015-02-23T09:42:37.440-05:00It does sound very interesting and I could imagine...It does sound very interesting and I could imagine myself reading this at some point. I can also see how this must have been very influential. Since rape is still so much part of our lives, I don't think the bok per see is dated but maybe the way she presents her arguments. On the other hand I couldn't think of another author looking into this topic like she did. But maybe I'm juts not aware. <br />I'm really glad you are doing this series/project.Carolinehttp://beautyisasleepingcat.wordpress.comnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4043273283783489008.post-55665366794536843872015-02-21T22:05:24.283-05:002015-02-21T22:05:24.283-05:00Hi James - Thanks so much.
The extensiveness of ...Hi James - Thanks so much.<br /><br /><br />The extensiveness of this book was surprising to me also. It delved into so may areas.<br />Brian Josephhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15139559400312336791noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4043273283783489008.post-67099556936728579572015-02-21T21:12:41.709-05:002015-02-21T21:12:41.709-05:00This certainly sounds like an impressive and exten...This certainly sounds like an impressive and extensive history and analysis of a difficult topic. Your commentary is thoughtful and challenging.Jameshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00561320676355168336noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4043273283783489008.post-13236356485711163882015-02-21T17:53:00.874-05:002015-02-21T17:53:00.874-05:00Hi Gary - I find that books about terrible violenc...Hi Gary - I find that books about terrible violence on a large scale do stay with me. I have read a fair amount of books like that. This is indeed one of them.Brian Josephhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15139559400312336791noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4043273283783489008.post-50356195070453097242015-02-21T17:38:50.509-05:002015-02-21T17:38:50.509-05:00This sounds like a really thought provoking read &...This sounds like a really thought provoking read & one that will remain with one past its last page.@parridhlanternhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12793548943992250238noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4043273283783489008.post-48278915121646844352015-02-21T15:30:28.899-05:002015-02-21T15:30:28.899-05:00Hi Guy - That is a really good question and it is ...Hi Guy - That is a really good question and it is one of the reasons that i am posting two entries on this book. The points that I covered in this post have in my opinion worked their way into popular thought and I would not define as controversial.<br /><br />There are other points made in this book that I believe to be still controversial. I will address those points in my next post.<br /><br />Brian Josephhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15139559400312336791noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4043273283783489008.post-77153180630890933902015-02-21T13:05:33.945-05:002015-02-21T13:05:33.945-05:00I am old enough to remember when this book came ou...I am old enough to remember when this book came out and all the controversy surrounding its arguments at that time. Do you consider that it's still a controversial book?Guy Savagehttp://www.swiftlytiltingplanet.wordpress.comnoreply@blogger.com