tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4043273283783489008.post4893837258151070768..comments2024-02-29T02:54:19.767-05:00Comments on Babbling Books: The Goodness Paradox by Richard Wrangham Brian Josephhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/15139559400312336791noreply@blogger.comBlogger33125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4043273283783489008.post-7852255099283248022019-04-09T14:57:11.610-04:002019-04-09T14:57:11.610-04:00Hi Tracy - It was a fascinating book. I think that...Hi Tracy - It was a fascinating book. I think that over the long haul it is close to incontrovertible that violence is diminishing. There are temporary setbacks and as you say, the media and other sources distort people’s perception. For more details, I highly recamend Steven Pinker’s Our Better Angels. Brian Josephhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15139559400312336791noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4043273283783489008.post-3404934860416271302019-04-09T11:41:58.157-04:002019-04-09T11:41:58.157-04:00Hmm! Interesting that the author argues that despi...Hmm! Interesting that the author argues that despite our genes, humanity has been getting less violent over time and is optimistic that this will continue. I often have this discussion with in particular my mother in law who is convinced with all the reports of growing knife crime here in the UK we are becoming a much more violent society. Nothing to do with social media and 'better' news coverage of course.<br /><br />This sounds like a truly fascinating read Brian, I'll be sure to make a note of it.Felicity Grace Terryhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17852843882007267665noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4043273283783489008.post-77149867114653638902019-04-08T22:22:31.712-04:002019-04-08T22:22:31.712-04:00Hi Andrew- I think that it was a combination of sh...Hi Andrew- I think that it was a combination of shunning, violent pushback and maybe some deaths that reduced the influence of the super bullies in humans. Brian Josephhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15139559400312336791noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4043273283783489008.post-38409043640477876792019-04-08T16:51:23.728-04:002019-04-08T16:51:23.728-04:00Wow, that's a fascinating idea, Brian! The ide...Wow, that's a fascinating idea, Brian! The idea of pro-social people ganging up against aggressive males sounds familiar, but I can't remember where I read about it before. It's a real problem, how to deal with aggressive people who will otherwise dominate a peaceful society. Killing them off leads to other problems and more violence against other groups, as you mention. I like the idea of shunning - in early societies and under harsh conditions, being exiled from the tribe would have been akin to a death sentence anyway.Andrew Blackmanhttps://andrewblackman.netnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4043273283783489008.post-90368068895338879132019-04-08T07:08:11.935-04:002019-04-08T07:08:11.935-04:00Thanks Paula. I think that when it comes to murder...Thanks Paula. I think that when it comes to murder convictions, most are for unpremeditated crimes. Thus our legal system sees them as reactive. Brian Josephhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15139559400312336791noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4043273283783489008.post-64905819497337204562019-04-08T05:53:12.975-04:002019-04-08T05:53:12.975-04:00Fascinating study. Especially the fate of the alph...Fascinating study. Especially the fate of the alpha male, and Wrangham's conclusion that reactive violence may be responsible for the majority of murders and assaults. I guess it's not totally surprising that proactive aggression is a human dominated trait, but it must be a very interesting book to trace this throughout history. Thanks for the interesting review. Paula Vincehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02079952414990463270noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4043273283783489008.post-91337343699394918232019-04-05T21:10:57.938-04:002019-04-05T21:10:57.938-04:00Hi Susan - I do think that evolution has reduced t...Hi Susan - I do think that evolution has reduced the frequency and success rate of super bullies in humans, otherwise they would dominate everything. I am not sure that it happened as a result of execution however. <br /><br />I also hope that the bonobos will always be with us. Brian Josephhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15139559400312336791noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4043273283783489008.post-45785315380911393822019-04-05T18:00:35.925-04:002019-04-05T18:00:35.925-04:00Very interesting book. I like the whole primate co...Very interesting book. I like the whole primate component to it. Like you, I'm not too sure about the author's execution hypothesis. Super bullies have led countries in the past, and maybe now too. Eventually they seem to get bumped off, like Hitler. I hope the planet doesn't lose the bonobos, hooray for their female policing. thecuecardhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08870323589682197091noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4043273283783489008.post-43432016230933688932019-04-05T07:54:36.744-04:002019-04-05T07:54:36.744-04:00Thanks Baili - Mamy types of violence are terrible...Thanks Baili - Mamy types of violence are terrible. Those who prey on people who just want to be left alone are terrible. I do believe that overall, violence is declining. Sometimes it is hard to see and it is no consolation to its victims. Brian Josephhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15139559400312336791noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4043273283783489008.post-17059344334462881022019-04-05T04:58:38.758-04:002019-04-05T04:58:38.758-04:00This is outstanding review dear Brain!
one of...This is outstanding review dear Brain!<br /><br />one of my favorite topic <br /><br />sounds great read!<br /><br />you covered it remarkably !<br /><br />writer seems to have strong eye upon human nature's progress through the years <br /><br />i agree with his observation that (mostly) there exist two kind of people <br /><br />one who act behalf of their aggressive attitude and other who react to such actions<br /><br />reactions can be more abrupt and stern than actions sometimes and this is not beyond human nature <br /><br />we find proactive aggression reaching to it's most dangerous point in world of today<br /><br />greed of power and longing for controlling others has gotten to worst<br /><br />in simple we have right to built four walls and place roof upon them to protect ourselves from all possible harm<br /><br />but planning to destroy other's houses because we assume that <br /> "may be" they can be threat to our power someday (not life) is unfair<br /><br />i hope we find out that BALANCE IN POWER AND JUSTICE IN SYSTEM ARE THINGS THAT CAN BRING PEACE AND PROSPERITY TO LIFE ON EARTH<br /><br />i thoroughly enjoyed the commentary today my friend!<br />blessings!<br /><br /><br /><br /> bailihttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06498012175058870980noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4043273283783489008.post-21925813116834499952019-04-03T22:19:31.917-04:002019-04-03T22:19:31.917-04:00HI WG - I think that you may be correct. Some of w...HI WG - I think that you may be correct. Some of what the author is describing as reactive violence may be practice.<br /><br />I think that the evidence that violence is decreasing is overwhelming. I highly recommend Steven Pinker's Our Better Angels. In that book the author lays out what has been happening with violence over millennia. He also makes a convincing case as to why it is happening. Brian Josephhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15139559400312336791noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4043273283783489008.post-14106081203140510172019-04-03T20:56:05.238-04:002019-04-03T20:56:05.238-04:00Fascinating Brian. I'm intrigued by his divisi...Fascinating Brian. I'm intrigued by his division between the two forms, because it feels to me like some of what he calls REACTIVE violence of men towards women or children is planned. Not all of course, but maybe as I think about it, even those that seem not exactly reactive can be opportunistic rather than formally proactive by his definition. Hmm.<br /><br />I'm intrigued - and hope he's right - that proactive violence is reducing. Sometimes it doesn't feel so.Whispering Gumshttps://whisperinggums.comnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4043273283783489008.post-27306121179676378722019-04-03T17:36:58.601-04:002019-04-03T17:36:58.601-04:00Hi Judith - Evolutionary biology is so interesting...Hi Judith - Evolutionary biology is so interesting. This would make for a great group discussion. <br /><br />I found that this book was easy to understand as I do not have a science background either. Brian Josephhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15139559400312336791noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4043273283783489008.post-77468065523444623532019-04-03T17:34:36.094-04:002019-04-03T17:34:36.094-04:00Hi Judy - There is a lot going on in terns of your...Hi Judy - There is a lot going on in terns of your observations. There is a great argument going on right now, between what I will call Postmodernists and liberal humanists and conservatives over the nature of truth and objective reality. It is reaching into politics social issues and much, much more. I have posted about it before but I will be posting about it more in the future. Personally, I favor the liberal humanist position. That is, we must defend objective truth, science, values like liberalisn, democracy, etc, from challenges comming from both the right and left. The challenge from the right seems obvious. The challenge from the left is what I have called postmodernism. More to come on this. <br /><br />When I say things are getting better I mean that over the long haul, violence is declining, poverty is falling, democracy is spreading, etc. I highly revamend Steven Pinker’s The Better Angels of Our Nature as it encapsulates what I am talking about. Brian Josephhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15139559400312336791noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4043273283783489008.post-75289384254996350522019-04-03T17:30:06.474-04:002019-04-03T17:30:06.474-04:00A fascinating review, Brian. Although I have a min...A fascinating review, Brian. Although I have a minimal science background, I've always been keenly interested in evolutionary biology. <br />This would be a wonderful book to discuss in a group, as I can see how each of his theories can be open to debate.Judithhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06435116453270981662noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4043273283783489008.post-59615311027336818422019-04-03T15:09:32.405-04:002019-04-03T15:09:32.405-04:00Your review gives me lots to ponder. I am also int...Your review gives me lots to ponder. I am also intrigued that you say the world is getting better. Sometimes I wonder if all these dualities: violence/nonviolence; male/female; proactive/reactive; even better/worse are only a way of organizing observations but are not entirely true. In every one, there are so many gradations. Just musing.Judy Kruegerhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11632346091869688862noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4043273283783489008.post-10346868842612521582019-04-03T09:42:49.705-04:002019-04-03T09:42:49.705-04:00Hi Sharon - Your comment was thought provoking. I ...Hi Sharon - Your comment was thought provoking. I think that like many things that make us human, violence at times can give one a survival and reproductive advantage. Evolution would favor it to some extent. Violence does not always come out in ways that are to an individuals advantage. It is just tool that we are left with. Sometimes it backfires. That is one reason that we evolved moderating factors such as repulsion to violence, a conscience, etc. <br /><br />I think that one can find lots of instances where woman are violent and it does not really contradict the author's theories. The frequency and type of violence that men perpetuate allowed the mechanisms that the author postulates to go forward. However, I am not sure that he has it correct at every turn. <br /><br />In most cases men on average are still more violent. In the case of child abuse women may, on average be more violent then men. I would guess that there is a biological component here but I am not certain, I would need to know more. I am pro voice, however, you raise an interesting point, is abortion a foe=rm of aggression? I have to think about that. <br /><br />Brian Josephhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15139559400312336791noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4043273283783489008.post-7469899366507030152019-04-02T23:45:26.109-04:002019-04-02T23:45:26.109-04:00Hi Brian, as usual a great review.
I think that t...Hi Brian, as usual a great review.<br /><br />I think that the author has thought carefully over his premise and fastidiously built upon it, however, he leaves too many variables unanswered so I find his conclusions unsatisfactory.<br /><br />For instance, he leaves out violent women, which are many, and contribute disproportionately to child abuse, if you include abortion as an act of violence against one's own offspring. And also the increase in single mom households.<br /><br />Coming from a Christian perspective, man suffers from a sin nature, which is why it is natural for us to act selfishly and unnatural to act altruistically. I'm not saying people cannot act unselfishly, but the motive that drives our actions are rooted in selfishness and we primarily care only about ourselves and those connected with us.<br /><br />This is obviously contrary to survival, which is why I wonder how the author can use the theory of evolution to explain violent people.<br /><br />By that I mean, so much violence is not necessary for survival, yet it happens. I think of the regimes in countries in Africa that are letting their whole country starve to death, not to mention North Korea.<br /><br />Well, you've got me thinking again, Brian. I appreciate your blog posts.Sharon Wilfonghttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17466621290140789056noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4043273283783489008.post-4032650152436658632019-04-02T22:46:43.714-04:002019-04-02T22:46:43.714-04:00Hi Kathy - Amimals banding together would be proac...Hi Kathy - Amimals banding together would be proactive aggression. As per tve book, A few do but it usually is to hunt or to act against members of their own species.<br /><br />This book talks a lot about the Neanderthals. As per this book they were not a cooperative among themselves as humans and were thus probably out competed by humans. Brian Josephhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15139559400312336791noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4043273283783489008.post-46263788657486012932019-04-02T22:31:22.964-04:002019-04-02T22:31:22.964-04:00Hi Brian, fascinating book because even today to e...Hi Brian, fascinating book because even today to encounter animals in tne wild its very much a predatory world in which the weaker animals will try to run away, hide or disguise themselves but what they don't do, as I understand, is band together to confront the stronger animals which would be proactive violence. Is it that they lack the brain power that humans have which would make planning for collective self defense possible? Neanderthals interesting too. I used to think they were our ancestors but read somewhere that they were a species that simply went extinct. Kathy's Cornerhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03967595794483824444noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4043273283783489008.post-47317558631600100312019-04-02T21:05:44.522-04:002019-04-02T21:05:44.522-04:00Hi Lisa - Thanks for reading. Hi Lisa - Thanks for reading. Brian Josephhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15139559400312336791noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4043273283783489008.post-91505569890121990382019-04-02T21:05:16.248-04:002019-04-02T21:05:16.248-04:00Hi Suko -,Thanks for reading. Hi Suko -,Thanks for reading. Brian Josephhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15139559400312336791noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4043273283783489008.post-8942238301438328302019-04-02T21:04:32.450-04:002019-04-02T21:04:32.450-04:00Hi Sue - Obviously the bullies have not been total...Hi Sue - Obviously the bullies have not been totally wiped out. But according to this book, amoung chimpanzees and most other primates, they dominate everything. In humans, bonobos and a few other primate species it is different. Brian Josephhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15139559400312336791noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4043273283783489008.post-23254298441583315822019-04-02T20:13:13.920-04:002019-04-02T20:13:13.920-04:00Fascinating! Thanks for sharing:)Fascinating! Thanks for sharing:)Lisa Hillhttp://anzlitlovers.comnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4043273283783489008.post-46681719996461347502019-04-02T19:56:30.937-04:002019-04-02T19:56:30.937-04:00Hi Stefanie- The author explains that in the case ...Hi Stefanie- The author explains that in the case bonobos, a unique situation involving thier food supply allowed the formation of social groups that facilitated the female groups policing violence. <br /><br />I think that in the vast majority of primate species, males tend to be more violent then females. Of course it is just averages. So any given human woman can be more violent then a particular man. But on average, men are more likely to be violent then women for biological reasons.Brian Josephhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15139559400312336791noreply@blogger.com